the angle said 65..

Am I supposed to multiply it or something? Or divide it?

I'm so lost, this suck

The problem with that school mission is that you are just too close to the target to get all the data you need in just one try. That is why I suggested doing a war patrol, you have more time that way.

When you do the three minute rule, do it twice if you can and connect all the Xs, That line you drew to get speed is also the target course line. You must extend the target course line way out there past your boat.
Put the center of the compass rose some were on the course line ahead of the target and than read the number where the course line crosses the outside of the compass rose. That is the target course in degrees. To get the Aob you need to draw a line from the target to the bow of your boat and measure the angle between that line and the target course line.

The big problem with getting AoB this way is by the time you get it entered into the TDC it is no longer correct as the target has moved from where you just took the measurements and if your boat is also moving the error is even bigger. That is why I suggested the method I use in my earlier post, setting the target course into the TDC instead of just AoB.
On the left top dial the bow of the little ship should point to the target course line you just measured, unless the target changes speed or course that will stay the same.

If you look at pic #6 you posted you can see that the target course line does not match the red line you just drew. That red line is wrong and so is the 65°

If you came up with a speed of 13 knots you did something wrong, the speed as I recall should be 10 knots.

Once you have the speed and the AoB you turn on the PK and than input the data in this order, first speed send to TDC second AoB Send to TDC and last range/bearing and send to TDC twice.

I'll load up the game and take some screen shots.

Magic

Yeah, you probably do have angle on the bow confused. What that is, AOB is YOUR position RELATIVE TO HIM, in other words how YOU would be reported if a lookout on the other ship saw you.

http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/1828/88522957.jpg

I chopped the scope view out to make this smaller. The left side is the main part of the TDC, bottom dial is your sub, top is the target. The inner ring is the relative bearing, which US specified in 360 degrees, Europeans generally used "RED 90" for a 270 degree relative bearing (port beam) and "GREEN 90" for a 90 (starboard beam). The outer circle is the true bearing, relative to the north pole rather than ship's bow.

The arrow pointer in the lower dial is the gyro angle, showing how much the torpedoes would have to turn after being fired - after all you're shooting straight out of the bow or stern tubes, and the fish will run straight for 200 to 300 yards before turning to the heading set for them by the TDC. The pointer arrow on the upper dial shows the angle that the torpedo will strike the target ship assuming no change in target course or speed. Obviously this is far out of range, but the angle on the bow is starboard 105, since his speed is 12 knots the torpedoes are chasing from behind and would hit about 128 degrees.

http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/9743/91906153.jpg

Here I've turned the sub around to head toward him, note the angle on the bow hasn't changed much, since I haven't moved very much relative to him - if he saw me he would still be looking in approximately the same direction, just a little aft of his starboard beam.

In this shot;

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...pse77a0996.png

You have a 60 degree gyro angle, in other words the torpedoes have to make a 60 degree right turn after leaving the tubes. Up to 30 degrees is okay if you have to, but the closer you can get to a zero gyro angle shot the better, since the further the fish need to turn the bigger the minor errors get magnified. So in that situation you're much better turning toward the track (or away if it's a stern shot) to get your sub lined up as close to 90 degrees to the target track as you can. Then set the AOB for about 80, and if you're perpendicular to the track it will be about 80 at the time you shoot.

Main reason for all the fooling around with the AOB in the beginning is to figure out his course - the Holy Grail of the attack is to draw his track, draw a perpendicular line 1000 yards off the track, then get there before he does and position yourself 1000 yards off the track facing toward the track at 90 degrees. Then just wait for him to reach the firing position and shoot.

The training mission is all but useless for learning manual targeting, you really need to go out and find a ship that is farther away so you have the time do do all this. Later war is better as you have Radar and thus more time. The firing solution you came up with is terrible, you are shooting way past what would be a good shot for the reasons Sniper gave.
By the time you open the torpedo doors and set the torpedoes to speed and depth, get all the data measured and input your target is long gone.
With the first SS I have not come even close to a firing solution and the target is already at the point I should have shot. Actually the torpedoes should have already have hit.

Here is a SS of how to get speed and AoB and the target course

This is the 3 minute rule. The circle is to get speed 9 knots.
The extended line is the target course
The red lines are to measure the AoB but as I said this will not be right by the time you enter it as the target will have moved.
Here I got 72° AoB. Don't mix up degrees of AoB with the target course which is 100°
The 72° AoB is only good for that exact moment in time as the target moves it will change. The 100° course will stay the same
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps0c3f4dc0.jpg

Here is how to measure the target course, the course is 100° where the rose crosses the course line. This is what you want the TDC to say once you enter AoB This 100° course will stay the same even if both you and the target are moving as long as the target doesn't change course.
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps2b8e74c7.jpg

This is what the TDC should look like, the ship in the left top dial will point to 10. That is a target course of 100°
To get this you turn the AoB input dial, the one on the right. Turn it to Starboard till it is close to what you see in the scope and click send to TDC.
you will see the top left dial turn. Keep adjusting the right dial and sending it to TDC till the bow on the left dial points 10 or 100°
http://i621.photobucket.com/albums/t...psf842c1ec.jpg

Hope all this helps, if not post again and we will see what we can do.
Magic

Sooo true!!!
In my opinion most important thing to learn is how to get target's course... so download/follow these tutorials
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RWDWd62q4w
and these also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAt5cAfeL9c

To measure speed: first make sure you are at dead stop, identify ship, get your stop watch and measure time needed for target to pass vertical line of your aiming cross from bow to stern, then multiply target's length with 1.943 and divide that number with number of seconds... for example:
Ship length = 120 m
Time = 25 seconds
120x1.943=233.16
233.16/25=9.3264
Target's speed is 9.3 knots.

If measuring is distance based... i.e. based on the distance or "leg" the target makes between two bearings/ranges (i.e. marks on the map, given by WO, or radar, use protractor, circle and pen tool ) calculate like this:
If time between measuring was, let's say 10 minutes, and the target in that time makes let's say 1450 m
1450/30.5=47.540984
47.540984/10=4.7540984
Round it up to 5, so target's speed is 5 knots... if you wonder what is 30.5 that is the distance (30.5 meters) an object/target makes in one minute at speed of 1 knot...
Now practice... lot of practice...

WTF!!

see..

What in the world is the point of using that tool that gives you angle info?

I see a number of 45 or something.. from everything you just showed me, I wouldn't need to use that at all.

That is the point you don't need to measure AoB with the protractor,
All you need to do is get a good target course and measure it's true heading(course line) with the compass rose and put that course into the TDC using the AoB input dial. It's really that simple. By using the three minute rule you get both speed and course, 2/3 for your firing solution and you may not have even seen the target yet. You don't even need to raise the periscope to do this, sonar or later radar is all you need to get to this point.

All you need than is range/bearing, get this with the steadimeter once the target gets closer. When it's in a comfortable shooting range turn on the PK and start inputting your data. Speed, that shouldn't have changed Second use a AoB input dial to set in the course, that should not have changed either and last steadimeter range/bearing, check the firing solution on the attack map and adjust as necessary.

Get to where you can hit with some consistency and than you can try more difficult shots later.

There are other ways to do all this but this is the simplest, try it first.

Good luck and good hunting.:salute::salute:
Magic

Thanks Magic!! you made it easier to understand.. I kept getting over my head with the protractor.. so really I just need to know the course the ship is on..

Glad to help. There is a war going on here and we need all the good skippers we can get. :salute:

Once you get the hang of it you'll be sinking ships like crazy and the game will take on a new meaning.

Magic

Fastfed (and anyone else), since you're attempting to learn manual targeting and trying to map plot the target, I'd suggest you download and print out this reference "High Realism Tutorial". It's designed to have a new player become familiar with the Position Keeper, Attack Data Tool, the several tools used on the Navigation Map, and the process in getting Speed, Angle on Bow and Range/Target Relative Bearing to work for you in acquiring a firing solution.

At the above thread you'll find my AoB Calculator which is a handy handheld device to figure target AoB, or it's tract heading. The Position Keeper does the same duty, so you don't have to have it, but it is helpful when at the Nav Map. Also, there's a "High Realism Mission" which can be added to the game with JSGME so you can follow the same target that's described in the tutorial. If this single mission isn't enough, download this mission "AoB Test", it has several targets heading towards your submerged sub at different angles/speeds for practice too. I made it for practicing with OTC, but it'll work with just about any mod. Once the practice missions are activated through JSGME, you'll find them in the "Single Missions" menu at the "main" menu screen.

One thing about your example images of the Nav Map......Why aren't you using the Nomograph? That's the three vertical lines thingy on the right side of the map! If you know the distance a target traveled, and the amount of time it took to travel that distance.......drawing a straight line connecting the two figures will point you to the speed the target is making. Simple as that.

Cause the 3min rule is easier, distance / 100 = speed

Sure it is, and I use it when I want to wait 3 or 6 minutes. But if I need a speed in 1 minute or 5.5 minutes, or if I'm doing a few things and don't want to mark things at exactly 3 minutes, the nomogram is a quick and simple way to figure speed rather than the division by xyz ways.

There are a number of different ways to do things, and each tool (3 minute rule, nomogram, calculations) each have their uses.

My primary manual attack method is the zero gyro attack selecting the approach angle (e.g. 90, 45, or in between depending on the situation.) But when useful (or to keep in practice) I also use the TDC (bearing, range, AOB -with course verification), passive sonar only methods, and Kentucky Windage for snap shots.

I find it useful to understand what is going on in each attack method and the inter-dependencies between parameters (like AOB and target course) to help me decide what type of attack to make, what neat thing to try (hits on 3 targets simultaneously), and how to proceed after my attack (snapshot ? as my periscope goes under at the tanker veering out of column and crossing my stern after the first targets were hit.)

Tom

Very true :up:

Wasn't meant in a disrespectful way at all but more like:

When learning manual targeting this is by far the easiest way to get speed and true course.
Once you get the hang of it you can start with other ways of get the same results without second guessing the input.

wanted to thank EVERYONE so far.. this is great info.

I've been doing pretty well.. Started a new campaign in an S-18, finding lone merchants, diving to P depth..

Starting my 3 minute test and so far, 1 out of 3 are hitting.. So its a learning curve for sure.

I'm getting the targets coarse down pretty well, speed is ok and range is ok.

Sometimes I hit the first torp. or sometimes I miss the first and adjust the speed.. If the torp is a miss front, I adjust the speed and lower it depending on how much I miss.

I just hit my first long range target by pure luck.

Sometimes you have time to do the 3 minute mark, but for example this time I didn't

I did for 1 merchant that was far away from a convoy behind me, 3 torps and 1 hit, he suck.

I swung around and had to go full flank to catch up to the other 8 or so in a convoy, by the time I got there I has maybe 30 seconds to set up and take the shot, no way would I have 3 minutes.

I had 1 torp left ready to shoot so I shot by the hip. Took a guess on every, speed.AOB.. Except range I asked my sonar guy to ping him, and send data to the TDC.

sure enough 3k yards away, I fired.. Dove deep to avoid the incoming DD and turned..

some minute or so later.. "Torpedo impact!!!"


:D

That feeling right there beats anything else this game can offer.. I now know why manual targeting is awesome :)

You just cannot say enough words to appreciate the feeling of getting things right!!

3 minute mark, had a speed of 12 knots, had the correct bearing, fired two torpedoes right when the target would of got to my 0,bow.

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...ps56859446.png

First one would of hit fine, but it was a dude and blew up before it reached, the second one hit its mark perfectly!


http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...psb5324c86.png

I went to the attack nav just to check after the ship already got hit

http://i618.photobucket.com/albums/t...psdc694e3a.png

was still pretty good.

don't hate me for keeping map contacts on, :)
I wouldn't even know what to do without it :)

when I do decide to turn them off, do you still see the line for what the sonar sees ??

also, maybe I'm doing it wrong, but the sonar guys range was way off.

He was about 1500 too much!

Don't feel bad contacts on, game wise it's probably more historic than off. I usually play with contacts on, but cams off. I enjoy not knowing what's going on and cams off is much more realistic.

Once you get really good with the radar and plotting, you may want to try contacts off.

Never follow what the Sonarman tells you his estimated range is when found in the Message Text Box. It's never right. When you want an accurate sonar range measurement you'll need to take it yourself.

Knowing what the relative bearing of the target is, either mouse click the sonar bearing dial (on right side), or use the keyboard Home/End keys to mark the bearing. Mouse click the left most toggle switch to "Send" a ping. The sonar range dial will indicate the distance up to 4000+ yards, but listen for a "return ping" indicating a good hit. It could still come after the range dial has stopped revolving. If no return ping, adjust the bearing just a degree or two. Sometimes a minor bearing adjustment is all that's necessary. Once a return ping is made, click the right toggle switch to "Send" the range to the Position Keeper/TDC. Going to the periscope station or TBT, you'll find the accurate range shown on the Position Keeper. It's exactly nut's on.

Just be aware that pinging a target when a warship is near is going to give away your position. That trot you find them in is intended to find you and beat the snott out of you!