So its not relevant to a discussion of sumulators because its TOO successful? Meanwhile you're banging away about a console would-be sim...

I don't understand the logical premise you're operating under. It seems to be entirely predicated on expounding your own exaustion with dealing with people who have opinions.

You're basically saying that unless you start your own business and make your own product people should basically not have opinions as consumers and take whats given them without commentary.

I think maybe you don't belong on the internet. :doh:

This game can only be 1 of 2 things . The greatest subsim game ever made for pc or the biggest piece of junk ever made for pc . I bet its the latter .

@Orpheus - thank you for your valued expertise on this matter. What you surmised was what I spent 10-15 minutes searching the web for, and found. Eventually, there isn't much reference to it in my usual places - obviously for a reason. :D

Nice to hear it from the horses mouth though.

Or, err, read it from the horses hooves..? :hmmm:

Triple A horse-sims? :har:

http://www.racing-index.com/horserac...om.jpg?f=33787

TBH I played Wings of Prey and it really is "lite sim" in the vein of Strike Fighters. Why I say it is AAA and DCS is not is because the Gaijin games have the kind of cinematic, epic production values we associate with the term AAA. AAA as used today really has nothing to do with quality - it is simply the gaming equivalent of Hollywood Blockbuster movies. IE huge budgets, lots of eyecandy, tightly crafted "experience".

For example SH4 and SH5 sit firmly in AAA land - they have huge focus on superb visuals, soundtrack and generally try to craft an epic blockbuster-like atmosphere. DCS doesn't do this. While it has excellent production values as a simulator it is not really a AAA production.

And I do think there is a place for all types of games: I play Strike Fighters regularily, I play FSX sometimes, I go back and play AOTD and Fast Attack regularily and I had great fun with Wings of Prey and Apache Air Assault. I even enjoyed the first HAWX for what it was, even if I had to suppress the grognard in me. I'm thrilled about DCS now that they're opening up for 3rd party modules.

Interestingly I've been playing the PC MMO version of Birds of Steel and to me the FM feels just like IL-2. Don't like it much tbh.

Actually I've been lurking for 5 years. I just don't post a whole lot except in the classic subsims board. My point is I see a lot of reactionary complaining here and nothing productive. The console-centric AAA business model isn't going anywhere soon, and the mobile/tablet market mainly consists to 90% of Rovio-wannabes run by money-junkies whose sole interest is quick profits and where terms like "artistic integrity" never even enters the vocabulary. Then on PC the publishers have been crying about piracy for years, while looking at the amazing success of World of Warcraft. So now the latest fad is to monetize every single franchise on PC by making it an MMO that can't be pirated and doesn't suffer from poor sales relative to console because they operate on a different business model.

That they make it microtransaction instead of subscription-based is because it makes them more money. I mean, the very first title I ever shipped started as a $3 iTunes download, flopped, and then management had us crunch for a few months to convert the title to free-to-play. Now the title is a free download but you can buy things like powerups to use during matches or $30 clothes sets that powers up your character, and you'd be surprised at how much more income* this scheme generates compare to the $3 download model.

It turns out that the average person is more reluctant to pay a $3 admission to play a game than they are to pay 10x more for an ingame item as long as the game itself doesn't cost anything. It's simple behavioral economics at work. For an even better example, look at Farmville. The entire experience is designed to hook you and make you pay by consistently forcing you to endure ever longer periods of downtime unless you buy ingame currency. It's gameplay as designed by psychologists.

Say what you want about this but can you really fault businesses for wanting in on the same cake when they see the enormous payoff of the Zynga model?

So in conclusion, and what I've been trying to say this whole time, is that all this complaining really amounts to nothing. No matter how much you complain, noone else is going to make another AOTD or SH3 anytime soon, when they could be doing the next Farmville or World of Warcraft instead and basically print money at will (Of course this never actually happens except if you're the 1% but then again capitalism is all about the 99% all thinking someday they and only they will become the 1%). It just won't happen.

So the only reasonable course of action if you really love this niche genre is to take the plunge, form a team and start developing in our own spare time.

And even if only one such enterprise ends up into something along the lines of the first Strike Fighters release, we'll be better off as a community than we are now.

*I know you probably think mobile market is a win win moneymaker, but I can tell you I never got paid for that game, nor the next one I shipped. So I don't really like being called an "industry apologist". I'm just a guy trying to make a living in a highly competitive and often ruthless industry.

Being a browser MMO I dont think it will be a major success. I like my mmo's I play 4 mmos 2 of them browser mmo's, the browser mmo's seem to be laggy and limited compared to the non browser mmo's. One such game was so laggy at times that the devs put out a client install-to-hdd app you no longer needed to load the game with the browser. This cut the lagg by about 90%. I hope Ubisoft give this option with SHO. I will most likely get right into SHO I wanna head out there with oceanic players some aussies players at subsim wonder if they will be try it out. Good fun

Eagle Dynamics prooved a few years ago that if you can demonstrate a SIM which oozes quality you can carve out your own market.

I think subscription or pay-as-you-go models for SIMs has potential if used as a system for growth/content/improvements but you must demonstrate the quality from day one.

If Ubisoft faced their mistakes, sunk another 2yrs dev time into SH5 with the community they could turn the franchise around and name their price.

:k_rofl: :k_rofl: :k_rofl: :k_rofl: :k_rofl: :k_rofl: :k_rofl: :k_rofl: :k_rofl:

There's Something Wrong With Our Bloody Ships Today
 

Hi everybody. Just need to vent some frustration. Background - 60 years old. Built model subs all my life. Now command 6ft R/C type VII. Used to play a floppy disc flight simulator (promised to quit when I landed!). Mentioned to daughter one day that I'd wish they'd do the same thing for a sub and six years ago she bought me a copy of SH3. Now play at 100% and when you're dead, you're dead (this time round I'm at May 42 with 63k tons). Will quit when I survive long enough to get Doenitz's signal! It is the only game I play.

SH4 came along but not much different and not really into Pacific operations. Program deleted. Then, family bought me a copy of SH5!!!!!!!!! Into the Atlantic again with superdooper graphics etc! Couldn't wait to load it up but had to whilst the graphics card, ram and chip were all upgraded.

Finally got it running. What a load of rubbish. Nothing more to say.

WELCOME ABOARD! :sunny:

SH4 has the U-Boats Add-On which, with Operation Monsun installed, becomes a full-blown Atlantic campaign. It lacks some of the cooler immersion mods available for SH3, but it is much the same game except with several improvements. I don't currently play the Pacific campaign either, being of the obsessive-compulsive persuasion and having to play in a linear fashion. If I ever reach 1942 I'll be playing in both theaters.

SH3? I also play in a straight line. If I die, or retire, in August 1942, my new career starts in September 1942. I may be starting a novice career in 1944 but sooner or later I will finally reach the end of the war. Or so I keep telling myself. :dead:

Welcome aboard, Wedigenn :salute:

OMG, a Sailor Steve typo, and on a mission-critical word, no less. Get yer cameras, fellas!


Yes, it is less complex than SH3/SH4/SH5. As awesome as Aces is/was, I don't see how anyone can objectively say it is better than SH3 or SH4. There's some serious nostalgia going on here. :) AOD is still widely regarded as the best subsim of its time. There may be people who say best of all time, I can't take that seriously.

Because 'more complex' doesn't always equal 'better'?

I've been playing a lot of SH1 lately, and I honestly find it objectively better than SH4. About the only things that aren't better in it are the sea graphics and the map tools. And Red Storm Rising does a lot of things better than Sub Command or Dangerous Waters, despite the almost complete technical realism of the latter. Both of these decades-old titles still hold up as well as back then in terms of playability so it isn't all down to nostalgia.

Aces of the Deep

There has never been a better sub sim, never been one that had all the necessary elements without all the clutter. Though out of nostalgia, I have to say that Silent Service II is the all-time most memorable... well, it was Aces of the Deep that first made me feel like I was in a tiny metal tube hundreds of feet under water, waiting on my fate. You had every major decision of a sub skipper in your hands. You had all the major technical innovations represented. Everything was there without the headaches.

SH4, of all the later sub sims, comes the closest to this feel.

And there has NEVER been a better nuclear sub sim than Red Storm Rising.
In fact, for my money, there has simply never been another; the first was the best and the only one you need.

I make typos all the time. Sometimes I catch them, sometimes I don't. As I've repeated countless times, my problem is never with mistakes people make, but with actual abuse of the language by people who should know better. When Frau Kaleun caught me using 'you're' when I meant 'your'? Now there was a catch! ;)

I specifically mentioned the gameplay, which included wolfpacks and escorts that could be highly intelligent or phenomenally stupid, and anything in between. The gameplay also included evasion by bottoming the boat and realistic fog which limited both u-boat and escort vision. SH3 and SH4 have none of those, and all the mods in the world haven't helped. That said, I prefer the newer games just for the feel, part of which involves graphics and some of which involves sound.

yes Neal...imo it is ...'nostalgia' ! a nostalgia of pure sub sims.
are the sh3/sh4/sh5 really 'complex' ? i don't think so.
the development of sub simulations stopped at sh2. from that day till today ,nothing added or developed-improved further on simulation elements in sh3,sh4 or sh5 (on the contrary ...some elements - without obvious reason - just ...vanished and a huge pack of....bugs added). sh3 or sh4 or sh5 are way far from calling them as 'sims'.
the sim fans are waiting more than 11 years for a real sim to come out(SH2 was released in November 2001 and 688i released in 1997). the best sim ,imo, was the 688i (which was sligthly improved and refreshed a little bit at DW) and i am really hoping these brilliant dev teams (sh1-sh2 dev or 688i dev teams) to show up again on stage with a u-boat sim.

as ,for all these about the 'dead sim market' that i am reading from time to time,...my opinion is that are not valid.think about it...if,indeed, was dead then there wouldn't be so many ,and very VERY good, sims for airplanes.people really like the serious sims and wants them.
companies like ubi just follow the fast road to get some money ...they don't care if the product will be good or not .all that matters for them is the product to be 'ready' in their time schedule and thats all.
there will be a real sub sim at future , i am sure of it ! when ? i don't know...i am just waiting !

+1 :up:

I am waiting too.

I haven't tried SHO, and have little desire to. It is only interesting to me insofar as it provides a window into Ubisoft's "thinking". Sadly, it seems to suggest Ubi is simply unable or unwilling to make a good subsim. :nope:

I think the next real subsim will not come from Ubisoft.

The concept of a subsim MMO is good and workable. In fact any simulation MMO concept is good and workable. It all depends on how you implement it.

serious MMO simulators have to be in some way or another, monthly fee based. Aces high has been running for 14 years now since the first alphas, and 12 from the initial release (at 30 buck a month back then). Has done just fine and is a reasonably hardcore flight simulator that has had success because it has had proper developing over time, and good customer support/feedback. But that requires monthly income. It's unavoidable.

sure enough MMO requires some gameplay concessions here and there (it's just inevitable, it's the nature of the limits a MMO imposes on any online gaming experience), but if finely tuned they don't do a mess nor they impair the realism and immersion a simulation demands.


So what we are offered is a web-browser game implemented under the "F2P" label. And THAT is where I start saying "no way, not for a game of this nature, and not for a game branded as Silent Hunter".

It's just the implementation they chose and the limits imposed by said implementation. Web browser. Flash based. Nothing against those things (they work quite well for something like Minecraft), they just don't cover the bases for something as complicated as a subsim.

Also Free to play?. Seriously, enough with that BS. F2P games are a scam on themselves and they range from "Pay to Win" to "free to get bored in the years long grind in front of you before you get anywhere near competitive enough". Lots of "magical" or "Boost" items for cash to give you surreal performances. Those things simply don't work for a simulation, for starters, and as I said, are scams to get money out of you. I don't like to be scammed. So another "No way, joe, I'm not into that"

Another thing is that I see none of the names that have made Silent hunter series great, involved in this project. And I mean, the modders who selflessly, and for no monetary reward other than donations that I'm sure didn't compensate at all for the work they put in their creation, turned unimpressive stock games into polished jewels of the simulation gaming history. And not only they are out of the project, they won't even be able to contribute to it by free at all because the MMO concept and web browser implementation inherently prevents them from doing so.


Finally the publisher is Ubisoft. Nothing else needed to argument this point.

^^Pretty much this. We have no reason to expect different behavior on their part, given their past.

My at home gaming began with a Commodore 64 computer. My very first game title was Silent Service from MicroProse (RIP). So you can see I've been around the pond a few times.

My take on this latest development is that online play has become the inevitable fate of computer based games and simulations. Sadly it will take away much of what those of us who have been there virtually since the beginning of computer entertainment enjoy. But this sort of change cannot be stopped...good or bad.

The Internet has changed everything and continues to do so. Just like music video has pretty much redefined what "music" is and removed many of the ingredients that made what we think of today as classic rock possible. The people coming of age today want instant gratification and everything at their fingerstips and on their smartphone. The "artists" of today (I use the term loosely) are more interested in making a big profitable splash than they are communicating something important inside themselves. There are the exceptions of course but by and large most of them just want to get rich as quickly as possible.

The younger folks of today did not experience what came before first-hand so their comprehension of it is only a shadow of what it actually was for those of us who did. They will cite the same old mantra that we older folks are stuck in time (which we also did to our older generation). But I dare say it's more than that.

There really is a difference in quality but only those of us who have lived through both eras can see this without having to be convinced of it. Just look at how music media has changed. There was a time when we all wanted a better media for listening to clean and rich sounding music that would be durable. That came finally with the advent of the CD. Vinyl is still considered the ultimate in delivering quality sound but vinyl is fragile.

But now we are going backwards to MP3 because everyone wants their music on their mobile devices and fully sampled music makes for huge files that would quickly fill the storage space on a smartphone. The CD is fast becoming a faded memory unfortunately and all the older music is being left behind because there simply are not enough buying customers to keep the titles profitably in production. I think this is a sad but unfortunately inevitable tragedy.

My analogy above may not be perfect but I think most who read it know what my point is. Computer gaming has become formulated towards profit and the technology is dictating what is or will be the experience we can all have. When desktop PC's were THE platform and everyone was just starting out developing games, we all were treated to some very diverse and rich types of games. But over time as the companies learned what worked best (for their pocketbooks) the diversity and richness has slowly dried up. Now we are seeing the end of it all.

There are some exceptions to all this (see the new Carrier Command and Far Cry 3 games as examples) but I'm glad there are emulators out there that allow us older folks to continue to enjoy the past. Personally I weep for the future of gamng.