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-   -   Battle of Wisconsin (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=181186)

gimpy117 03-13-11 10:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by August (Post 1618949)
Nice try but Iraq has nothing to do with public sector unions, TARP, or the price of tea in China. You are just casting randomly about hoping to muddy up the waters sufficiently that attention will be directed away from the excesses of public sector unions, but it just ain't gonna work.

What do you have against keeping public sector worker wage increases limited to cost of living unless approved by the voters?

What do you have against letting public sector workers decide whether they want a union to represent them?

Why do you support punishing a cash strapped town for using private plow trucks to take up the slack for the unions inability to get the job done in an emergency?
Because it proves that private companies can rip of the public just as much as "unions can" as long as they have elected officials in their pocket enough.

Look at my hometown for example. they built a new parking garage with no bidding for contracts. why? because the guy in charge was an old business buddy of the contractor in charge for the parking garage...and undoubtedly that cost the city of Traverse City a lot of money.

I'm not against saving money..but i am against the GOP busting unions for their own gain or because they want to help their buddies.

TorpX 03-13-11 11:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpy117 (Post 1618830)
you're kidding? The same can be said of corporations who pay off politicians for favorable laws, or pet projects that always seem to go over budget, and never really deliver.

its funny how the world goes both ways
I agree that corporate welfare and political corruption are problems that need to be dealt with. The problem of the Federal and State governments inability to reduce spending is paramount. When a corrupt mayor or congressman pushes through a bad deal it is bad, but when a state school system can and public sector can extort billions from taxpayers by holding school children hostage, it is much worse.

If a company or private union are foolish or corrupt, I can refuse to deal with them and buy from the competition. Since they know this they have a strong incentive to behave themselves. With the public sector there are no restraints. The taxpayers must pay and pay. The public schools can not be allowed to go out of business and it is always easier for politicians to raise taxes than to cut spending.

I have followed the events in Wisconsin with keen interest, since I live next door in Illinois. My state is in just as bad condition as Wis. (maybe worse), but so far nothing has been done to remedy the situation. Our governor use to talk about spending restaint, but now behaves like a liberal trained seal. He has signed tax increases and has made only token spending cuts. This may "solve" the problem in the short term, but can only accelerate Illinois decline long term. The Democrats have solid control of the state and there is not likely to be any serious attempt to deal with the problem any time soon. However, the situation cannot continue for very long, because economic realities simply will not permit it. Ordinary people will not be able to afford taxes and prices going up and up, with no end in sight. Few politicians seem to be willing to face this fact.

Tribesman 03-14-11 02:39 AM
Quote:
Unions do not belong in the public sector. End of story.
If the public sector has employees those employees should have the same rights available as any other employee, those right includes union membership and collective bargaining.
If however there is a political theory which believes that public sector employees are not employees like other employees and that they must not be treated like other employees and afforded the same rights then there should be no public sector employees at all or no rights for any workers in any sector.

August 03-14-11 07:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpy117 (Post 1618972)
Because it proves that private companies can rip of the public just as much as "unions can" as long as they have elected officials in their pocket enough.

Look at my hometown for example. they built a new parking garage with no bidding for contracts. why? because the guy in charge was an old business buddy of the contractor in charge for the parking garage...and undoubtedly that cost the city of Traverse City a lot of money.

I'm not against saving money..but i am against the GOP busting unions for their own gain or because they want to help their buddies.
Yeah you are. You think it's perfectly ok for unions to rob the taxpayer because others are doing it too! That hypocrisy is why the Democrats did so badly last election and I don't see it changing for the next one.

Bottom line either the Democrats abandon the public sector unions or they will continue to loose power in the next election.

August 03-14-11 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by TorpX (Post 1618991)
If a company or private union are foolish or corrupt, I can refuse to deal with them and buy from the competition. Since they know this they have a strong incentive to behave themselves. With the public sector there are no restraints. The taxpayers must pay and pay. The public schools can not be allowed to go out of business and it is always easier for politicians to raise taxes than to cut spending.
This, this, this ^

gimpy117 03-14-11 08:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by August (Post 1619077)
Yeah you are. You think it's perfectly ok for unions to rob the taxpayer because others are doing it too! That hypocrisy is why the Democrats did so badly last election and I don't see it changing for the next one.

Bottom line either the Democrats abandon the public sector unions or they will continue to loose power in the next election.
I wasn't really saying two wrongs make a right...I was more pointing out how black and white your thinking is. You've boiled down shades of grey to:

Unions bad. Private sector good.

and somehow you've convinced yourself that only unions are the ones ripping off taxpayers while the truth lays somewhere in between. If the republicans really wanted to eliminate waste and balance the budget they would also look at waste in private contracts too. But they wont..why? because all this is all just union busting.

Tribesman 03-14-11 08:36 AM
Forget it Gimpy, leave them with their illusions about restraints and competition.

For all of augusts "This, this, this ^" TorpX ignores well established patterns that are as old as the hills.

August 03-14-11 09:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpy117 (Post 1619101)
...you've convinced yourself that only unions are the ones ripping off taxpayers...
Stop putting words in my mouth. Not once have I ever said or implied that. This discussion is about the problems with public sector unions. If you want to talk about corporate influence then start your own thread for it.

Then I can tell you that by your reasoning we should do nothing about corporate abuse because the unions are ripping off the taxpayers as well.

Platapus 03-14-11 09:27 AM
Hey, I got a wacky idea.

Why don't we debate the issue and not have ad hom. attacks? I highly doubt that anyone here in the GT is personally responsible for anything with this Wisconsin issue. So there is no need for anything to get personal here, right?

I know it is a wacky "out of the GT box" idea, but think about it. It just might work. :yep:

gimpy117 03-14-11 09:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by August (Post 1619150)
Stop putting words in my mouth. Not once have I ever said or implied that. This discussion is about the problems with public sector unions. If you want to talk about corporate influence then start your own thread for it.

Then I can tell you that by your reasoning we should do nothing about corporate abuse because the unions are ripping off the taxpayers as well.
well you haven't really acknowledged that you also think corporate waste needs to be checked too...if that even is your belief. Id be more more willing to cut unions if first I did not believe this is all being done for corporate interests, and secondly If there was fair emphasis at resolving other wastes in the budget (especially wasteful pet projects given to favorite companies). Its all very one sided, everywhere from on the boards to at the top. it doesn't feel like just an attempt to balance the budget...it feels more like an attack on unions.

nikimcbee 03-14-11 09:58 AM
This whole argument pertains to public sector unions (excluding fire/po-lice). What's the purpose for them to organize? None. They are just paracites feeding off the taxpayers.

gimpy117 03-14-11 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikimcbee (Post 1619180)
This whole argument pertains to public sector unions (excluding fire/po-lice). What's the purpose for them to organize? None. They are just paracites feeding off the taxpayers.
They want to organize to make sure their interests are protected and their jobs aren't cut.

to me it's ironic that they are being painted as villains even though they just want the best living they can have, or just to keep their job.

Especially when our legislature is the second highest paid in the nation, behind California. (base salary starting at $79,650 plus 1,000 a month for office expenses).

August 03-14-11 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpy117 (Post 1619205)
...to me it's ironic that they are being painted as villains even though they just want the best living they can have, or just to keep their job.

But that doesn't stop you from vilifying corporations who after all are just doing the exact same thing the public sector union is doing, getting the best deal they can for their members.

But again, if a corporation charges too much they soon loose the contract to their competitor, political patronage or not.

Where is the unions competition?

Growler 03-14-11 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by August (Post 1619236)
Where is the unions competition?
Or, put another way: What is a union's motivation to maintain high levels of ethics and efficiency, when a member is going to pay dues no matter what, or be ostracized and outcast both from the union and from the workplace?

When I worked for a large, brown shipping company in the early 90's, I was not offered a choice to participate in the union - it was practically stated that union membership was mandatory as a condition of employment; yet I, to this day, do not know who the union rep was in the shop.

Tribesman 03-14-11 02:06 PM
Quote:
But again, if a corporation charges too much they soon loose the contract to their competitor, political patronage or not.
Once again a point that doesn't reflect reality.

gimpy117 03-14-11 02:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by August (Post 1619236)
But that doesn't stop you from vilifying corporations who after all are just doing the exact same thing the public sector union is doing, getting the best deal they can for their members.
also doesn't really reflect reality.

Corporations rarely share profits as freely as that statement suggests. unless you are talking about stocks..and thats only because they have to. People working for them get squat

Also, Corporations are not people. A union is an association of workers a company is not. The old "corporations are people too" just doesn't cut it.

Sea Demon 03-14-11 04:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpy117 (Post 1619373)
also doesn't really reflect reality.

Corporations rarely share profits as freely as that statement suggests. unless you are talking about stocks..and thats only because they have to. People working for them get squat

Also, Corporations are not people. A union is an association of workers a company is not. The old "corporations are people too" just doesn't cut it.
Which corporations? How many have you worked for? The ones I've worked for don't reflect anything like you have posted in this statement.

And just for clarity's sake, corporations are a grouping of people, and unions are a grouping of people. There is no difference to that effect. It's merely the goals of each that differ.

August 03-14-11 06:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpy117 (Post 1619373)
also doesn't really reflect reality.
I would disagree but it's irrelevant. This isn't about corporations. It's about the organized blackmail and thuggery that you call unions and no amount of obfuscation on your part is going to change that.

To recap:
Unions oppose voluntary participation.
Unions oppose periodic votes of confidence
Unions oppose competition.
Unions oppose allowing the voter to decide if they deserve a pay raise beyond the cost of living.
Unions are over paid and over compensated.

nikimcbee 03-14-11 06:53 PM
I wonder what Aramike is up to? I haven't heard from him since this concluded.:06:

nikimcbee 03-14-11 06:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by August (Post 1619519)
I would disagree but it's irrelevant. This isn't about corporations. It's about the organized blackmail and thuggery that you call unions and no amount of obfuscation on your part is going to change that.

To recap:
Unions oppose voluntary participation.
Unions oppose periodic votes of confidence
Unions oppose competition.
Unions oppose allowing the voter to decide if they deserve a pay raise beyond the cost of living.
Unions are over paid and over compensated.
Clarify please: You are still talking about the public unions or unions in general?

Another key, afaik, this whole fuss was regarding benefits, not pay. You should have heard the unions squeal here when they wanted to increase their health contribution by......$5:har:. There was no way they were going to pay that.:dead: Ofcoarse, the gov buckled, as he was a union sock puppet.:haha:


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