Exactly Gorshkov. The TDC was much more advanced than depicted in SH4. For example time could be wound forwards and back, to allow time to be reset and a new course and speed to be put in and then the TDC would be wound forward to the last recorded position to see if that matched. Also, when closest a fast target you could wind the TDC forward to see at what point (timewise and position wise) you would be closest to the target, That allowed you to get ready and to know when your best firing point was coming up.

Of course but I am not sure if full modeling of Mk-III TDC would be UBI's best option. First, vast majority of players would find handling of such TDC too difficult. Second, exact TDC design and its theoretical background was not unveiled even until now due to national security reasons if Wikipedia's article is right. Well, why to help possible enemies to master torpedo targeting?

However developers should have allowed modders like you to recreate full TDC by leaving needed features in the game code.

The TDC manuals have been available for a long time now, since before SH4 was made. The most important thing that hasn't been simulated in the TDC is the updating of the bearing. In the real TDC if you wind up the bearing the AoB and range changes, as if the target had moved along its course. In the simulated TDC the range styays the same and the AoB stays the same, so effectively when you update the bearing you have to enter a range again and if the course was right, you just made it go wrong and then have to re-enter that again, which isn't easy with the stock AoB only dial entry. It all makes for very high workload last minute adjustments and actually makes the TDC less useful than it was in reality.

This is another story! If UBI had implemented this feature according to your description above it would have made player's life easier. I meant rather Position Keeper lacking features and crappy access to radar data discussed earlier.

BTW - what do you know about clicking two times on this red mark present on dial entry? This was once mentioned as necessary in one of Dick O'Kane's targeting tutorials.

It's a problem when the PK is off. If the PK is on, then the target data is calculated correctly. If the PK is off, then you need to send the data twice to get the TDC to display the correct gyro angle. If the PK is on, it's not an issue. I don't know if it's just a display problem, or whether the wrong gyro angle is passed to the torpedo. In either case, if you use the TDC with the PK on, then you don't ever have that problem.

Next step in the tutorial: skip the realtime updated submarine-cursor on the navmap and use a blank spot on the map instead. Then the fun begins when tracking your own position while getting radar bearings.

Basically: mark your own position on the map, take a radar reading and plot it from there. Then just time the radar readouts with some fixed intervals in which you now how far you will have traveled and so on. Also time your course and speed changes accordingly.

By ignoring the magical sub-cursor, everything gets less precise. But it also gets more fun and 'real' and rewarding in contrast to clean and a little bit more generic. :yeah:

Thanks for explanations Nisgels! Did all US torpedoes of that era have built-in gyros?

All torpedoes have built in gyros. That's the only way they can stay on course. British mk.8 torpedoes had gyros, but they could not be given a gyro angle order, as they were all straight shooters, e.g. you had to manouever the boat to a zero gyro angle shot. Having a gyro and being able to give the torpedo a course change after launch are seperate things. Most US torpedoes had gyro angle orders, but I'm not sure about the Mk. 27 cutie. In the game it also seems to be modelled a bit strangely. Certainly the pre war mk. 10 torpedoes had gyro angle orders and so did the contemporray Mk.14s and subsequent marks. Not sure about the Mk. 27. It was a swim out weapon, designed to home on sound, so I'm not sure if it was a straight fire or directed fire weapon. Anyone know?

****! I meant gyro-angle preset feature of course! :oops:

So American and German torpedoes had it from the war's beginning but British, Russian and Italian fishes had not. I am not sure about Japanese and French torps. Anyway this was very helpful feature.

zzzz -- awaiting the tutorial
 

I posted my attempt to plot and find target speed in Nisgeis' thread with re the 3D TDC. I assume Mr. Channing upcoming post will resolve some of the issues I am having, as his initial tutorial seems well presented. In the meantime I am giving it a try by doing what I think will work, but so far I have failed.

You are headed in the right direction... just a little guidance needed.

I hope to get part 2 up in a day or so.

JCC

Part 1 is a real boon to us visual learners. Nicely done. You should be writing text books for high school. (That's a compliment)


God Bless Electric Boat

Thanks.

Part 2 is going a lot slower than I hoped because of the complxity of the process . Hopefully it will be worth the wait.

JCC

complexity of the process
 

Oh, come on! It is a piece of cake. If you would stop shooting skeet off the stern in the morning and hitting golf balls off the bow each afternoon, you would have it done in no time!!

Hee hee hee...

In fact, it's so complex, that I spelled "complex" wrong.

But seriously, I have thought I was close a couple of times but when I went back over it and saw that what I had done I realized that it would have made things even more confusing. Plus I sent the last version to Nisgeis and he rightly pointed out a number of places where I had screwed it up and hadn't even noticed (makes me wonder how I hit the target in the first place).

Right now I am going to try to take what I have and, using my LeeT photoshop skills, edit it down to something workable/understandable. Either that or start again from scratch.

Trust me, I am as anxious to get this done as anyone. I keep using the same mission over and over again for this, and I really want to get out on an actual patrol and put it all to the test.

Soon!

JCC

don't worry about when you post
 

This is an EXTREMELY complex mod. I have been posting like crazy, in part, to help you and nisgeis deal with issues that I have spotted. Nisgeis built this device from the grourd up. That is good, but he may not be able to step back and be able to see the issues that confront those with less knowledge.

Some basic explanations are probably in order. They include what the TDC does and does not do. How Aob fits into the equation after sending range and bearing to the TDC. The reason you activate the PK. Issues re lead angle (or why no lead angle is needed), a comparison to the other attack methods, etc. Have fun.

Some of these are covered, some not.

What I hoped to do is construct a step-by-step process tutorial that is easy to follow. Once it's gets up and you go through it we can get into clarifications where necessary.

JCC

another set back
 

map contacts disabled. I stumbled upon a huge convoy/task force. I could not get a handle on its course, as my readings were inconsistent. It is hard to focus bearings on one of many ships. After 2 hours, I gave up. Reason, I cut myself a break and assumed it was the American fleet.:D There is another issue for you to play with.

Might have to wait a bit. I am kinda anxious to go out on a War Patrol and really try this stuff out. Plus ComSubPac wants to send me through the La Pérouse Straits.

Sounds like fun!



Just waiting on Nisgeis' sign-off and part two will be up!



JCC

If I can make a suggestion:
A lot of times when I get stuck or want to try out different things without having to worry about being spotted by escorts/targets or I don't want to deal with weather, I open up the mission editor and make a training miision by sticking one or two, or a whole bunch of ships if I need to, and set the ships at a known course and speed and shoot practice approaches on them. You don't have to worry about stealth or airplanes ruining your approach or anything like that. You can concentrate on whatever it is you want to try out.
This mod sounds like an ideal time to do that until you get the hang of using it.

Now you have two important pieces of information and you can practice plotting using this mod and compare your plotting to what the targets are already doing. You do not have to worry about anything else.

I'm sure that whenever I get going again with SH4, I will be using this mod and probably making a training mission or two.

:)