:har:

That's because you've not been here and don't have 1st hand experience.

The real truth about what is underlying in Spain is ... EU breaking :88)

We're going to get our as**es shot off the EU in less than what you need to spell "E.U."

And deservedly so :nope:

Why is Germany pushing to get Greece out of the s***? Why not let them sink and kick them out of the EU.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye. :hmmm:

To put it in the words of some person who's name I cannot recall at the moment: "It's the politics, stupid".

It's also the economics. Germany needs Greece (and the rest of the EU) to buy its exports, otherwise its economy suffers. The problem with the EU is if one falls, then the others being tightly linked economically as well as politically, suffer along with them.

The problem here will be the fact that the cycle of failure, bailout will most likley not be broken and if you think Greece is the only EU state teetering on the brink of economic collapse, then you should take a good hard look at Spain, Italy and some of the other less likely suspects.

Germany depends on all of the others to make the EU work for their economy.

I would like the UK out of that bloody EU Monster, £45 million a day we give to the EU...Stuff them, that's money we need to get out of our own mess.

It is not that simplistic. The economic fallout for the german economy comes not from lost deals with Greeece, but indirectly via troubles on the makrets, instabile Euro currencies, lost trust in banks which in return become even more hesitent to give credits, and the longterm consequences of nations taking even more debts themselves in order to bail out the Greek today. All this together means not only Greek-German deals being effected, but all German exports and economy alltogether. If it were Greece alone, in no way it could be said that Germany would need Greece economically. The trade volume is not big enough. The loss in trade volume would be much less than what the crisis costs us now.

In 2008, goods worth only 11 billion were exported to Greece, with German total exports being around 980 billion. In 2009, exports dropped to 6.6 billion. So, Greece is neither a vital partner for German economics, nor is it considered to be a system-relevant economy within the EU.

In 2008, Greek goods worth 3 billion were imported by Germany, with German imports from all the world totalling 800 billion.

In 2009, Germany's share of total EU payments to Greece were worth 1.4 billion. Greece is netto receiver of EU budget payments, and always has been.

Before a monetarian union, oyu must have some kind of an economic union. This was ignored when starting the euro. But without an economic balance, any monetarian union necessarily turns into a transfer union. the need for an economic balabce first may be the reason, why the idea of a superstate of europe with a shareed currency maybe must be seen as more illusional as has been assumed even by pessimists. Because I do not see any scenario were such an economic balancing would become reality. Also, the basic proboems with Greece have been known but not reacted too for too long, since Greece joined the Euro. They just hoped they could sit it out and the fairy queen would save the game for them.

What also often gets ignored is the social dynamics caused by age structures of societies, and this effecting economic perspectives. The span in differences of average age in European countries is beyond 15 years, with Germany being one of the oldest populations, and for example Ireland I think being one of the youngest. Only some economists point out that for that reason of different economic perspectives nations need the freedom to have different interest rate levels. But In europe, the ECB sets the same level for all nations, which may be good for some nations, while being extremely bad for others. Another argument why this Euro currency is such a bad idea. There is too little cohesion in Europe.

what also makes me angry is that for the banking crisis, the ordinary man had to pay the bill, not the banks. It appears that now again the ordinary taxpayer must pay the bill, witht he banks beign saved again. Message: risky deals and irresponsible business models poay off because the high profile actors time and again are allowed to get away with it - because it is said that milking the banks would again damage own econmies.

the past three years have been three DAMN GOOD years for bankers. They blew off, but saved their earning sand got away with it. Several banks, amoingst them goldman and Deutsche B'ank, have published fantastic profit numbers in the past days - whcih can only be explained by high risk speculations already have become the ordinary business again, and all talking about greater sense of responsibility obviously already gone with the wind.

The Casino is open again, and the show already runs hotter again than ever before. One could start to wish for murder when imagining it.

How sweet it would be if that happenned because, without Germany, there could be no EU.

If it is to happen at all, it will happen shortly after the "rich country" illusion finaly pops, and the realities of a deep depression finaly anger the people enough to take back their country from the corupt politicians, banksters, and leaders of industry.

The EU is like foreign aid.
It takes money from the poor people in a "rich" country,
and gives it to the rich people in a "poor"/poor country.

This came up as an subject on the radio last night, an a expert on EU regulations and law said, Germany and the IMF can not bail out Greece as they would be breaking an EU law of sovereignty of the country. :hmmm:

Mind you, we all know laws can so easily be melted like ice cream. ;)

Greece's IMF quota is only SDR820m, or the equivalent of around $1.2bn. Even if under its exceptional lending practices the IMF were to extend Greece an 18-month standby arrangement for 12 times Greece's quota, which is the largest amount of a country's quota that the IMF has committed to date, the IMF would be able to commit only about $15bn of its own resources to a Greek bail-out programme.
The very large size that a Greek bail-out package would have to be if it were to be credible in the markets implies that the IMF cannot and will not bear this burden on its own.
Sadly, Greece's very large public borrowing needs over the next 18 months dictate that a credible bail-out package would have to be at least between $40bn and $50bn. This means that the eurozone countries would have to commit at least $25bn to Greece in order to satisfy the IMF that the bail-out programme was fully funded.
The net upshot is that going to the IMF will not spare Greece having to get substantial German financial support. Given the German taxpayers' strong opposition to a Greek bail-out, this could prove to be a major challenge for Greece ahead of the scheduled May 9 Westphalia election.
It seems not turning to the IMF is also a pride thing as well:

The French and the European Central Bank, which had opposed turning to the IMF out of fear it would damage the euro's prestige and show that Europe was unable to solve its own financial woes. The eurozone has never turned to the IMF.
Germany sees itself as a fierce defender of prudent budget spending and is unwilling to use its taxpayer money to help Greece, which overspent and faked budget figures for years.

Spain on Wednesday became the latest eurozone country to suffer a credit rating downgrade, as contagion from the Greek debt crisis appeared to be spreading rapidly.
"Amid the disorder, the possibility that Berlin could be legally prevented from contributing to the Greek aid package stands out as a potential source of further difficulty.
Four German professors - Wilhelm Hankel, Wilhelm Nolling, Karl Albrecht Schachtschneider and Joachim Starbatty - are attempting to do just that, on the grounds that a bilateral transfer to Greece would breach the EU's 'no bail-out' clause.
The four unsuccessfully fought an anti-euro lawsuit at the German constitutional court in 1998, but are confident they will win this time. "Our initiative has unbelievably big support," professor Starbatty said this week.
Legal experts are currently debating whether the German court could allow aid to flow to Greece while it looked into the legality of the transfer."

Europe's next bankruptcy candidates?
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5515912,00.html

Just in: Greece officially announces a financial need of 60 billion.

PER YEAR.

Now consider that they say you should not trust Greeks if they bring you statistics and numbers. Consider that all their numbers presented in the past were lies and forgery.

ICF said they plan for an at least 10 year renovation of Greece.

Now do some math, and don'T forget to calculate a generous reserve for future "corrections", too.

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/articl...-pro-Jahr.html

"Oh happy days... da-dada-daaa... oh happy dah-hays... da-dada-daaa..."

I don't think I said it was simplistic. Politics and Economics rarely are. In fact my post was to the effect that it was not just about the politics but also the economic pressures on all the EU states including Germany, to bail out Greece. It is like all of these sorts of issues a complex and multi-faceted problem that no one has easy answers to.

Well from the radio I heard Germany owns the postal service and all the airports in Greece along with other investments, I see why Germany has been banging the drum.

We should also get something as collateral, some business would be nice or an island.:sunny:

I translated this from a comment in a German paper that I think nailed it to the point very nicely.

---------

Beside the big bailout package, it seems to be a marginal note only: the European Central Bank (ECB) immediately and from now on accepts Greek state bonds as “securities”. That are right those bonds that just have been rated as garbage papers. That makes it all clear for even the most novice layman: this is the greatest sin possible of this issuing bank.

We got used to that the EU commission is not able to control the stability and growth pact. We also have to learn to accept that our (German) finance minister just in January said that the International Currency Fond has no business to do in the Eurozone – and that just four months later has to take back his words. But with what has happened yesterday we should refuse to come to terms with so easily: the ECB has, with regard to Greece, announced that even in the future it will accept state bonds as securities that have been rated as garbage values.

What sounds like just a technical detail, is a fundamental basic sin: the ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet has proven to all the world that in times of crisis his words are worth nothing anymore. Just early April Trichet assured everybody that for no nation, no country ever, exceptions from the rules would be accepted. But now the Central Bank has signed a card blanche for every deficit sinner. With that, the ECB has lost it’s innocence. (It has created the precedent case.)

The consequences are dramatic. How could the ECB ever justify again to raise interest rates in order to fight inflation – and by that at the same time putting the Greek rescuing program in danger…? The ECB is the one institution in Europe that safe-guards the monetary savings of people by guaranteeing the stability of the European currency. If people stop trusting the ECB, they will no longer plan with long-termed perspectives. If the president of the ECB just within weeks gives up most vital and basic principles, why should the Euro remain to stay stable over coming years and decades?

The answers to these questions have been refused to be given by European politicians and bankers. They claim to have put out the Greek fire, and know very well that the water does not last for Spain, Ireland and Portugal anymore. And in this crisis they have sacrificed the credibility and trustworthiness of all European institutions, from the EU commission to the Central Bank.

That are the real cost of the Greek bailout.

------------

Moral of the story: the rules of the EU are not worth the paper they are printed on. Laws, treaties and rules will be avoided and ignored whenever leaders think it is opportune to do so.

I have stopped trusting the EU years ago. And present events confirm to me that people have all reason one could wish for to not trust the EU. I hope this crisis explodes into our faces and the shockwave destroys the Union from roof to basement. If it cannot be repaired, crush it, and then build new - but not before all Europeans have learned the lesson for sure, by having seriously suffered themselves. the risk is high, the chnces for success are slim. But when staying with the EU, I see no long-term chance at all. A small chance in a situation of danger is better than no chance in a situation of illusional safety.

yes, the future for the E.U. doesn't look bright.
in many countries the political system turned to mere maintaining the influence of a class of bankers, politicians, tycoons.
and the middle-class has to pay for all.

ECB is a scam just like the FED, actually controlled by private bankers, didnt the Rothschilds start from Frankfurt..:O:

These kinds of people have no homeland, they are an elite with their own interest in mind.

I hope Finland leaves this mess and gets back the Finnish mark, i would be happily "poorer" under more democratic and sovereign economy.:salute:

At least one thing the Greek should not be accused of: they are not the cause of the financial troubles in Europe, they are just the currently most prominent symptom, with more symptoms lining up at the starting line to enter the race for public attention, finally: Spain, Britain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, and after these contesters practically all other Western nations and the capitalistic market model as well, including Germany and the United States. This is not just about the members of the Eurozone. Especially Britain also promises to become a star in financial trouble-making in the near future. The cause for the crisis evolving over the past 20 years or so is the structural change in the EU's orientation and self-design, and if you look back over the past 100 years the cause indeed is the inherent dualistic nature of capitalism itself that on the one hand has formed this formidable ablity to constantly modernise it'S production methods and raising it'S productivity - and right by that eroding the economic fundament of it's own EVA (economic value added=Wertschöpfung). Nothing in this world runs constantly in one direction, everything runs in circles, is dualistic, and for the good being gained, a bad sneaks in and a price has to be payed as well. It's like that with all things in life, isn't it.

Only stupids and economic and financial scientists can claim that there is something like constant growth, forever, and that it is free of charge.

They published this essay today, which I find to be a very nice summary of the developements and the reasons behind them, as well as some data nicely presented in graphics and putting some numerical stuff into relation. Even if you do not understand German, you might find the graphics helpful.

http://www.heise.de/bin/tp/issue/r4/...551&mode=print

I wished this School of Economics had more influence nowadays:
http://mises.org/

(but all the governments let themselves be blinded by running into debts some next generations will have to pay back) :cry:

First time I heared that phrase I asked my mum about it and what it meant (debts-Schulden, I did not know it), for I was at elementary school when hearing it on an Black-White-TV. That is 35 years ago. and since then politicians tell us that the future generation will need to care, and that things will be solved just after the present has passed, and that it will become better once things have - become better in the near future.

It will not happen. what will happen is that we will continue to steal the future of our children and children's children in order to consume it all by ourselves.

Total Credit Market Debt as % of GDP: (note that even the bottom line does not mark "zero" but 130%)

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2...rketdebtvs.png

Paying back existing debts...??? Even at their best times the economies of the world would not have been able to shoulder that burden. When politicians tell us that we will start bringing debts back to zero once economy has recovered, they lie.

And they know it.

We will most likely not even be able to form balanced yearly budgets where no additonal debts are being taken. We will continue to live on tick, and while spiraling down the spiral, one day it all will implode. And then the world will turn really violent and chaotic again. Daily politics focusses on the desperate hope that it just will not happen within the legislation periods of current office holders. That's as far as our wisdom goes.

May as well go fishing.