Heya guys, just thought I'd throw in my two cents on the matter, seeing as how I'm currently employed in a GM factory (as a temp, not a full time employee). GM has won mid-size Car of the Year the past two years in a row. In 2007 it was the Saturn Aura, and this year it's the Chevy Malibu. This might be too little, too late, but it does show that GM is going in the right direction. The Volt is scheduled to arrive in 2010, and as far as I know, only Mitsubishi has an all-electric car coming out earlier (and they just recently pushed the date ahead from 2010 to 2009 a few weeks ago). I personally own a 2001 Saturn SC2 and have had nothing wrong with it except for regular maintenance. Also, my normal driving habits (70% highway) usually garner about 30-35 mpg.

The problem is that no one thinks "mid-size car" and "Chevy/Ford/Chrysler" in the same sentence. That's their own fault for allowing the Japanese to take over that market, but to claim that they produce nothing but Hummers/Chargers/etc. is patently false.

Like any other work place, a GM factory has it's good jobs and bad jobs. There are some people who get paid an amazing amount of money to do very little, but most jobs are boring, mind-numbing, and yet, not easy. And there are plenty of jobs at the plant that I wouldn't do for double what the regular guys get paid. In most stations, the timing is so tight that if you drop a screw, you will stop the line. Most jobs are also moderately physically demanding, as they've got you clambering all over the car to attach this, tie that down, shoot that bolt then the other bolt, then repeat ad nauseum for the next eight hours. Most days I wake up sore, and the first couple weeks were pure misery. So the idea of one guy screwing one bolt then waiting for five minutes for the next car to arrive is highly inaccurate.

The last round of negotiations (in 2007, I think) definitely benefited GM. They got the UAW to cover health care for retired workers, and reduced the benefits for current employees. The Union realizes it's screwed and is trying to salvage what it can. Although the deal benefits GM long term, and lets them compete with the Japanese automakers in terms of employee salary and benefits, it hits them hard in the short term because they have to donate something like $35 billion into the UAW health care trust. As I understand it, what GM really wants the gov't loan money for is that $35 billion.

That's not to say that GM shouldn't go under. I believe it should, along with the other two. And I also think that the people who claim it's not the UAW's fault are trying to rationalize how unions are still necessary. It's not entirely their fault, as the management of GM has made some horrible decisions which might have sunk the company on their own, but the UAW are certainly to blame. I do, however, believe that the gov't will bail them out. If Bush won't do it, then I guarantee you that Obama will. Going to work for the past two months has me believing that the UAW has it's own form of Newspeak. I was bombarded with Obama literature and propaganda, and anyone who thought he wasn't the promised one was roundly criticized. I quickly learned to stow any non-union ideals in the car before I entered the plant.

Personally, I believe the UAW does more harm than good, and that GM, Chrysler, and Ford should collapse. I also think it would be a very scary thing if that happened.

i need to be enlighted on a point , why US companies never tried to take market parts in Europe . i mean i've been in a US car once it was long time ago it was a little Chevy Beretta i mean that little car was great much more comfortable that its equivalents in Europe (maybe it used much more petrol too can't tell wasn't a the steering wheel :confused:) .

You are correct Larry on all points, specifically the bailout. Washington will send the money. There is one other part you did not mention and I went over it a few posts back...quality. I believe the quality of the cars made by the big three have grown considerably. I worked as a mechanic for 8 years(back in the 80's). I spent more time fixing GM products then any other. My experience with a brand new 1988 Monte Carlo was horrible. All of this happened before 27000 miles on it:

Replace pinion/seal/universal joint in rear axle (this was the day after I purchased the car:o )
leaking rear window
Blown valve seals
broken speedo cable
unbalanced drum from the factory (car vibrated at speed and I had to go to 3 dealers to finally find the problem and get it corrected)
Check engine light on (replaced ECM)
valve seals blown (again:o ). This time I did the repair myself with racing valve seals.
Check engine light on again. Car cuts off for no reason. Replace EGR valve and another ECM.
Check engine light on two days later. Car cuts off in the middle of intersection. Advised to pull intake manifold to clean up carbon build up by GM repair shop.

I advised to shove the car back to Detroit and turned it in. It was the safest car on the road because it was always in the shop. :-? Traded to a Japanese Geo Storm. Not a lick of trouble right up to 120000 miles. Nothing, zero, worked like a charm and as designed. I vowed never to purchase a GM ever again. I'm just one of millions to make the same vow because of the same problems. Many experienced this with Ford and Chrysler. It is very hard to shake the undependable quotent once you been labeled with it.

Currently I own a Lincoln Continental(Ford) and a Mercury Mountineer. No problems at all. I feel these are good quality cars and will continue to purchase Ford products. I just turned in our Dodge Caravan. Another excellent vehicle. Two issues with this van, bad pulley design for the serpentine belt and accumulator for the A/C under the dash. Other than that, we took that van right up 120000 miles without issue. I sold it to a relative for $400.00 who just loves the vehicle. The quality is back but getting people back onboard to show them the quality is very hard. The big three need to drive home the idea that their vehicles are quality made. Specifically, GM, needs to get new designers. Their cars are just dog butt ugly. Example, the Aztec...what the hell were they thinking. I just saw a concept car from Buick. Super nice and IMO a vehicle that will sell. We will probably not see this car get manufactured. At the moment I see only Buick leading the way on cars that are appealing.

They did, but they did it through european companies. Ford owns Jaguar and Volvo, as well as producing cars themselves. GM owns Opel and it's british brandname Vauxhall. I am not aware of anything Chrysler related, though.

that's a very cruel post for us europeans http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire3.gif

this thread's beginning to stress me Chevrolet and Cadillac are going to disappear no
[mode humor on]moderators please close that thread and also burn Subsim server so that this thread can't be found again http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire3.gif[/mode humor off]

Don't worry JPM, we still have model T's kept in running condition by legions of car fanatics. Caddys, Chevys and the rest will still be driving on American roads long after we're gone.

Don't forget that humongous fleet of Corvairs in my neighbors yards:rotfl:

Unsafe at any speed!....Ralph Nader. My sister had a Corvair. It ran on memory. :rotfl:

American auto industry?

What American auto industry? Every car I have worked on made by the big 3 says made in Mexico, or Canada, or some other country. The big 3 are in big trouble, because of poor management, white collar theft of profits through loans and advances that are not under any requirement to be paid back, and lack of technological advancements.

Honda and Toyota now emmulate what a US car used to be like. Dependable, tough, and if taken care of, will run forever.

i wonder if that critical situation because for me talking of the disappearance of such symbols difficult to make more critical , i wonder if that's not simply the confirmation of the petrol era end

AVGWarhawk post pics of your Continental please

If the America auto industry has to fail under the free market system, it needs to fail. Giving an incompetent management a $25 billion handout is only delaying the inevitable so the Dems can say they're helping middle America. If it has to burn, let it burn now. We don't need to have the same discussion a few years from now. If the auto industry absolutely must be saved, 100% socialize them. The middle ground is just delaying the pain in the interest of looking like the Dem Congress is doing something.

PD

don't know if one should laugh or if one should cry

nationalisation you got it man . some say nationalisation isn't logical in a capitalism system why not ? In France to quote a example i know all companies where the state is the major shareholder are in good condition good at the minimum in general they are in excellent condition ; why ? the controls benefit of the whole state structure these controls are regular and well made by competent persons because the bankrupcy of such company could lead to the politic in place death and believe me they don't want that to happen . Take the example of Airbus there were serious problems with the A380 as soon as the problem was detected the company leaders were changed and that several times until the company goes better . in a private system the company leaders are a kinda kings in their kingdom until the disaster's there you won't see anything , in opposite to a company ruled by the state where controls are frequent and in deep

I don't think the US government'll let the whole cars companies go down , the symbol is too important . Don't know for the others but when i hear the word United states of America i don't think to the Grand canyon , i don't think a F-16 , i don't think to a SR-71 , first thing that comes to my mind's a US car yesssssssssssssssssssssss http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire1.gif

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q...nental_2-1.jpg


Same year, same color, different wheels. 275 horses of petrol sucking V8 :smug: My continental before this was a 1980 Signature Series. Friggin tank it was.

pffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff ! you americans don't know how lucky you're :up:

In all reality I spend $20.00/week in gas. I only live 15 miles round trip from my work. My wife is 14 miles from work round trip and she spends $20.00 in her Mountaineer. Gas was really never an issue for us. Even when it went crazy over the summer I had to spend $25.00/week. A $5.00 increase. No big deal really.

@jpm1 I gather American cars aren't your forte.

Saturn has one of the best customer satisfaction ratings for a US car.

Saturns are great cars. Also, they have come a long way in the looks department. I really like the two seat coop they have made recently.