i don't agree against one personel yes but i let you imagine how a massacre like Columbine's would be difficult to achieve with a hunting rifle

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y15...ip-FRclose.jpg

Yahoshua- yeah, had I've had a front row ticket to the greatest show on earth for 16 years now. My capacity on the job has changed, and as much as I've seen us get thrown to the wolves by our media, citizens and higher ups, I wouldn't change places with anyone.


Platapus- Only one was confirmed AEA. The rest were gallows humor so to speak. And thanks for the kind words Sir!

jpm1- Charles Whitman killed 14 and wounded 31 at the University of Texas from the 28th floor of the Tower. Impossible to do that with a handgun.

you're right but what i wanted to say it's that a rifle holder can be stopped much more easily than an automatic weapon holder , it's also more easy for a victim to escape from a rifle holder that's why this kind of weapon 's more easy to own in France than an automatic weapon . Hunting shotguns canno't contain more than 5 cartridges everything's done so that even with the weapons that are more easy to use if something should happen the maniac could be fastly and easily put out of an harmful state by the order forces . As long as i remember i don't remember a short news item in which an unstable person would kill people with an unauthorized weapon it happens sometimes like anywhere else but with a calibre 12 and in general the maniac in worst cases kills it's family and then kills himself as like if he knew if he goes out with such an "inapropriate" weapon he'll be fastly stopped and could die in a not very glorious way

They used a hunting shotgun instead. No military rifle was involved. So what is your point?

On top of this, every shot fired from a hunting rifle would have been more deadly resulting in less injuries and more deaths. Take your pick! And anyone who knows his stuff can fire a hunting rifle nearly as fast as a semi auto! I have some vid on that - good stuff!

-S

jpm1: I kind of get the jist of what you are saying. As a man that has to run towards the armed maniac, my kevlar vest will more then likely keep me alive if that armed maniac is armed with a handgun or shotgun. A hunting rifle for the most part are either bolt action or semi-automatic BUT use a military rifle round. Kevlar vests will just keep a person's intestines from pouring out of the exit wound. The second thing that scares me about long guns, the men armed with them, tend to be very proficient with them!

Handgun yes, shotgun with buckshot - no. Any hunting rifle - no. Doesn't matter, kevlar, unless full combat armor as used in Iraq, will not do 'anything' against any type of weapon that isn't a handgun. So that is not an argument. Combat armor stops an AK round just fine, but shatters on impact so you get to stop one or two rds in total. Doubt it will stop a hunting rd however. Dragonskin may be the only armor that can save you from pretty much all rds from rifles, assuming they are not large caliber.

-S

what does take your pick mean ? concerning myself i was talking of high rate of fire weapons

http://davecullen.com/columbine/img/...e-caf-new.jpeg
(Columbine cameras)

i agree long rifles are probably one of the most powerful of the weapons a personel can hold but it's the only way to hunt games "properly" . the authorities hold the excuse of their rate of fire to allow their selling more easily however i still think it's more difficult to perpetrate a massacre with a 7.65 mm long rifle which needs to extract the bullet find the other bullet reload , ream , aim than a M16 which has ready to use 20 rounds magazines (or any automatic weapon with magazines) and doesn't need a precise aiming

Well, I have a video for you if I can still find it! You'd be surprised what one could do with a long rifle! :D

-S

Handgun yes, shotgun with buckshot - no. Any hunting rifle - no. Doesn't matter, kevlar, unless full combat armor as used in Iraq, will not do 'anything' against any type of weapon that isn't a handgun. So that is not an argument. Combat armor stops an AK round just fine, but shatters on impact so you get to stop one or two rds in total. Doubt it will stop a hunting rd however. Dragonskin may be the only armor that can save you from pretty much all rds from rifles, assuming they are not large caliber.

-S[/quote]

Mr. Steed, I respectfully disagree with your shotgun buckshot argument. A type II-A, II and III-A (soft body armor) will stop the pellets, from a shotgun shell. Mind you it will not tickle.... The rigid and semi rigid level or type III and IV, that you refer to is not practical for everyday law enforcement duties.

I'm a bit confused, the 7.62x39mm round that is used in an AK, isn't it for all intents and purposes (size and speed) a .308 winchester round?


jpm1: In regards to what you posit. Yes, the guns used in Columbine, VT, and closer to home, my former school, NIU, the semi automatics used, facilitated the large casulties caused in each of those tragedies. But, there is an overlooked common theme to each of these mass murders that is unlike what happened in Texas: the mass grouping of targets. Sorry if that sounds cold and crass but it's the truth. "Spray and pray" is our stock answer when a scenario is thrown out at roll call but it applies to each of these events. The survivors of these horrible incidents just happened to be behind the unlucky ones. If a rifle round was used, then you better hope you are behind 3 people. Trying to say one is better then the other is comparing which poison works quicker. They all kill.

A II-A + might stop it, though you are getting into the bulkyness of a law enforcement type vest. I agree with you on that one. I won't say you won't breaka rib in the process though.

7.62x39 is not a 308. Its much shorter. Enters the body as a small calibre handgun round, entering and exiting with minimal trauma. The reason it always exits is it over-penetrates big time.

-S

You are correct about the dimensions on the 7.62 but I kind of simplfied the comparison. I meant diameter.

I've been wearing a level II since day one. My first was a point blank that was like wearing a wooden placard. The 2nd has been much nicer, the range of motion, flexibility and weight are night and day. Been debating between another II or a IIIA as my next one, or another II with a shock plate.

Link to PDF guide to basic selection and application of Personal Body Armor:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf


Link to an old retired farts website with general testing of ammo penetration:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/


Browse and read at your own liking.

Come on down to Texas, we could use experienced officers down here.

The second one is a great resource, thanks much Yahoshua :up: . I've got the first on my HD. I know for a fact they work. A good friend was working midnights in the same district I work now. He went to stop a guy on foot for an ordinance violation. The rectal duct had a .357 crotched and when the officer put a hand on the guy's shoulder to get his attention he ups the magnum, which was loaded with .357 rounds, punched the barrel into his sternum and fired. It was so close it charred the area around the bullet hole in his shirt. The vest saved his life.

Thanks for the offer, happy with being a sgt now. The less work (yeah right) more money thing has spoiled me.

Funny vids :)
 

http://www.hawgsmoke.com/assets/video/IFF.HEAT.OFF.wmv

Shots with the 577 T-rex rifle
http://www.hawgsmoke.com/assets/vide...coil-rifle.wmv

I own a Remington 700, 30-06. I guarantee you even at 500 yds a 180 grain round will go through a Law Enforcement vest like butter. I would never want to be hit by a high powered round in combat, there would be extreme tissue damage. Also the 7.62 comes in many varieties of length. The AK round is actually quite short while the 7.62x59 (.308 NATO) is a very nice cartrige for snipers. It is the preferd round for the Marines, though the Army uses the .300 Win mag(:smug: ).

I also own a 9mm for self defense though I am currently on the hunt for a .45 USP. I have serious doubts sbout the 9mm's stopping power. not saying it is a deadly round but knock down powere is of upmost importance to me.

Rem 700 is a very nice weapon indeed. :up:

You guys jump the track better than any train ever will. :p :rotfl:


I thought the topic of thread was the relationship of easy gun ownership and suicide. :-?

and I think we pretty much discussed that topic fully. So we move on to another related topic. :)

Good to know! It does shed a bit of light why the Germans occupied France so easily. The right to arm bears was ordained so that Yogi and Boo Boo could remain free.:D