Funny thing; I just read a book on the history of the 'pledge' awhile back. Originally it was much shorter: "I pledge allegiance to my flag, and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all". That was 1892.

In 1923 "my" was changed to "the", and "of the United States" was added. "Of America was added a year later.

Today's ultraconservatives get upset when liberals complain about the "Under God" part, without realizing that was added by congress in 1954.

Here's a site about some of it:
http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm

I agree, it sounds like a loyalty oath required by a totalitarian country.

They went overboard on this one, and they've obviously gone the wrong way about doing it. If they merely want you to show respect for the flag, then they should've aksed/instructed so in a more calm and courteous manner, but they didn't. That's all there really is to it.



These sort of people are not my friends, nor are they my equals, and they're no better than a hostile enemy that is intent on my destruction.

What breeds these anarcho-communists?? Europe has a good number of them too. They look and sound the same everywhere, weird subculture.:roll:

Partly from peer pressure.
Partly from brainwashing.
Partly from vain desire for perfection while ignoring the failures of past attempts (which I would define as insanity since they attempt to repeat the same experiment while expecting different results).
Partly because it is considered "cool" and "trendy" to be anti-(insert here)

Worst of all is that they actually believe their ideology to be true.

I have never understood this American thing about not letting the flag touch the ground and burning it if it gets dirty. Why can't you wash it?

I'm being serious, I was a signalman in the Royal Navy and I spent a lot of time washing dirty flags. I just can't see what is so bad about it touching the ground.

In Britain, Colours are lowerd to the ground as a salute to the Monarch, and, as Army Regimental Colours cost a fortune, because of all the gold thread, burning is too expensive an option.

Not every time a flag randomly touches the ground do we burn one, but when one has been purposely mistreated, damaged, or defiled do we burn one. Ironically, it is a sign of respect for the country.


At least that's how I think it goes. Steve would probably know. :yep:

We have the same policy as the Americans, very strict rules rules about how you can use the flag. If somebody, athlete for exsample, wraps the flag around him it isnt looked at very well.

Symbolism...

What worries me is when symbols are rated higher than what they stand for, or nobody caring anymore for symbols being given as a distraction, while meanwhile what they are pointing at gets abused and violated in the hidden.

Males and their games! :lol:

My grandfather made a photo of himself, ones. He took on his old Wehrmachtsuniform (yep, it survived) - and instead of the regular medals, he wore a lot of metal-and-glas fun-medals from a carnival commitee. :up: Needless to say that the uniform also was... a bit tight...

Also want to say that he left one eye, better part of one lunge and one leg in the war - but not his humour. That's the spirit!

so next time you shake your head about me, remember: it's genetic.

I'm American

I respect others

I want truth

I want justice

I want peace

As I grew up my parents (Married now for 48 years) gave me ways to discern these things.
These ways have never failed me.

If you have no compass that is true then your course is a lie.

:sunny: :sunny: :sunny: :sunny:

I don't see that something can be right for one country and not another, to borrow from our American cousins; we hold these truths to be universal...

p.s. I hate the union flag, it's gaudy and doesn't represent me, now the cross of Saint George that I do like.

I like it because it represents the English people, it isn't the English people, it can fall on the ground and catch fire and I won't be burned or stained, however if some bloody immigrant burns it as an insult to us all then he should be thrown in the stocks and pelted with remaindered pork pies then deported. Also I don't care if they were born here they can be deported to the country they can love or their parents country, whichever one they can afford a ticket to, and yes I do think we should send the Normans home!

Sorry for the long rant without punctuation but I'm getting pretty sick of mohamedans.

Hm. (biting his tongue).

Hm. "We" refers to 5% of mankind in this case. How can 5% claim to be representative for the other 95%? If so, then only the most general principles of human life can be meant. And then they are so much "general" that they are not so much an issue for political/national statements or laws, but touches more the realms of philosophy and religion. I know that by hostory the US is far more basing on relöigious grounds than other Western nations today, but still the US is meant to be a secular nation after all, or am I wrong?

The world is crowded by persons and peoples, tribes and countries sayingn that they are the keeper of the golden rules, and that their rules are universal, and that all others must comply. Islam too, btw. Many Nazis considered the fascist ideal to be universal, too.

See what came from such statements for universal domination: war, violence, and more of both. I wish the Us would considere itself less often to be on a God-wanted mission to bestow it's favour upon all mankind. Reminds me too much of god-sent kings, god-wanted wars, and god-ordered priests.

I myself would already be satisfied if those nations not in tolerable degree of conformity with us to stay away and leave us alone. Missionising the world has done far more bad than good throughout history of mankind. That also is true again for both the White Man, and Islam.

Perhaps we misunderstand each other, skybird;

What I mean is it is either right for the state to indoctrinate children or isn't.

For truth to be something other than falsehood it must be a universal truth.

Mike

:cry:

Öööööhhhhhmmm - i would say that I have not the smallest clue what you are saying or meaning, then. :-?

I remember reciting the pledge at school, I'm glad I was quite young at the time. In Ireland there's no such thing. How I feel about my flag is how I feel about my country, and that would be "conflicted". I didn't choose to be born here, or anywhere. My parents conceived there, and my mother chose to give birth in the Irish hospital, and not the British one just over the border. Big deal.

State-mandated nationalism, theism...ugh.

That said, I don't really understand people being proud of their country by default, which is what the pledge looks like to me.

Psalms 79

[1] O God, the heathen are come into thine inheritance; thy holy temple have they defiled; they have laid Jerusalem on heaps.
[2] The dead bodies of thy servants have they given to be meat unto the fowls of the heaven, the flesh of thy saints unto the beasts of the earth.
[3] Their blood have they shed like water round about Jerusalem; and there was none to bury them.
[4] We are become a reproach to our neighbours, a scorn and derision to them that are round about us.
[5] How long, LORD? wilt thou be angry for ever? shall thy jealousy burn like fire?
[6] Pour out thy wrath upon the heathen that have not known thee, and upon the kingdoms that have not called upon thy name.
[7] For they have devoured Jacob, and laid waste his dwelling place.
[8] O remember not against us former iniquities: let thy tender mercies speedily prevent us: for we are brought very low.
[9] Help us, O God of our salvation, for the glory of thy name: and deliver us, and purge away our sins, for thy name's sake.
[10] Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is their God? let him be known among the heathen in our sight by the revenging of the blood of thy servants which is shed.
[11] Let the sighing of the prisoner come before thee; according to the greatness of thy power preserve thou those that are appointed to die;
[12] And render unto our neighbours sevenfold into their bosom their reproach, wherewith they have reproached thee, O Lord.
[13] So we thy people and sheep of thy pasture will give thee thanks for ever: we will shew forth thy praise to all generations.

That pretty much sums it up for me. One cannot be proud of what one has not acchieved himself. One can like to be American, Or Irish, or German, once can enjoy to live in that place, be glad about it, like the people there - but being proud for having been subject to a random event? Or intentionally moving to a place - being prud to be an immigrant here or there? Shpould I be proud that I moved from Berlin to Osnabrück? Should I be ashamed for having given up Osnrbrück, and moved to Münster?

I forgot where the original essay was located, but some weeks ago I posted a link in this forum, an essay wehere it was argued that in fact america has not more but less sense of national unity, compared to european states, and that this is caused by it's character of being an immigrant nation. It also argued that this lack is felt quite well by americans, and leads to some kind of theatre-acting, or compensating for that loss - by exaggerating patriotism. Patriotism in that essay was understood to be something difefrent than national identity. The fist was referring to loyalty to rules and symbols, the latter to historically grown identity. If i remember correctly, that often pointed extremely high sense of mobility, and the tendency to think of all the globe being another part of America, and having the mission por right to make it a subject of Americanisation, was also given as a hint for that lacking sense of national identity, and rootlessness.

If somebody remembers that posting with that link of mine, remind me of it, please.

Well...

America will stand at least as long as I breath...

After that ...

What I can't understand is this ideology that standing up for what is truth is wrong.
Why do I gotta except things I know are wrong?
This idea of tolerance for everyone and everything is straight outta the pit of Hell!

It's crazy but I've met some people who claim to be "Tolerant" ... you know what I'm talkin about ... you have to except my way of life BS
They preach tolerance and they claim tolerance as away of life...

but when you tell them "NO" they sure get INTOLERANT real fast...

it just flies right out the window...

then the Tolerant ones start pointing fingers and calling names and even want to fight some want to kill you...
and what really trips me out is when you shoot'em to protect yourself from harm they act like you are supposed to take abuse because you aint tolerant like them

Keep your warm fuzzies.

Anyway ...

Thats what I'm reading here on this post and a few others that have passed before me on this screen.


I'm an American with a backbone!

When I'm dead y'all can do whatcha like with me.

Til' then stuff your warm fuzzies

Could you be more specific, please. Random denigration doesn't help anything.

I mentioned how I disliked reciting 'the pledge' when I was younger, but it didn't have any effect on how I felt about my country when I got older. After watching world events unfold over a few decades, I became thankful for where I was.

Is having national pride really that dead in Europe? I think not when someone insults a European's nation... I see the reaction. Deep down they're still proud of who they are. It's just damn unfortunate that this political correctness has become second nature - even part of your culture.

Overall, I'm proud I'm an American because my ancestors left such staleness behind.