I agree with this :roll: Hopefully all of this will not scare away those just getting into modding, be a shame if it did.

RDP

Escuse me but if I go on your site and look for TA the 2nd sentince is this.

Whan you see "standalone" it usaly means that you dont need the origanal program to install it. So I can understand why Lehmann(and the rest of the GWX community) thinks that. But if you look farther down the page you see this.

Now Im confused. is it a standalone mod, or a addon to GWX? If its just a addon I sugest you change your page to remove or edit the sentince quoted above.

Well, since you also bends the words to your liking that's make two of us! :huh:

Since your initial post was made less than one day ago, I couldn't have made the reply over several days, so what a cr*p reply!

GWX depends on the music made by artists to be succesfull, and some mods created "out of the house" too!

About time? What do you mean? Do you now say, you think, I should make that hypothetical super-mod? Well, IF I do, I did say IF, then it would not be the entire GWX. I would leave out your damage model as one example!

By stand-alone mod, I mean nor GWX-TA1.0, nor GWX-TA1.1, nor GWX-TA1.2 will be necessary anymore, since I have removed some files (TGAs)

GWX-TA is an add on mod for GWX, which also is quite obvious, when you look at the installation instructions, so I don't get it, why some accuse me first, before asking for an explanation first!

This entire thread is about asking! You want me to ask! But some don't ask me first! Some just accuse me of several things first! So I did the WU thing to be very provocative! Nobody just read the last sentence in my ubi post!
So much for reading skills!

I'd like to bring back the original subject, leaving aside who did what in which ocasion. There is a point raised by Kpt. Lehman that is worth trying to agree here: What to do if a request or permission to use/include/modify a mod is forwarded to the author, and no answer comes?

Can we agree in an etiquette for that case? Since many people do mods and then vanish in the cyberspace, I think it is something of upmost importance, for starters.:hmm:

Concerning the use of 4-5 seconds of instrumental non-vocal work by Peter Gabriel in the opening intro to GWX... umm we're not competing with his band FFS. We had to put something useful there for the sake of consistency. GWX is not Napster.com.

Concerning the use of various little sound-bites from Das Boot... this is also stated in the GWX manual... and where they came from. We aren't hiding anything shameful... and if anything, we've only included enough to make people curious enough with the tease, to go buy the movie. I concede that this isn't a perfect arrangement... but we haven't made any effort to hide these items either. The Das Boot sound bites were released as a mod here in Ogg Vorbis format... We asked for permission and were granted said permission by the creator of the Das Boot sound mod... many moons ago.

I'm truly torn down the middle about these things... They are easily controversial and no doubt the Carotios out there will be happy to throw these things back in my face to try and confuse the whole matter.

Other mod packages have not removed them... and we will not.

Carotio is on a witch-hunt... and has been for some time... nothing new there.

No doubt that he will turn around now and say the same. Tit for tat... it could go on forever.

Cool... sorry about the cross post.

Well, I have a suggestion for you...

It was you that stirred up this little hornets nest afresh. Left to their own devices, the guys concerned may have been able to hammer out a conclusion or come to some sort of arrangement. Maybe they still can.

Why not just be quiet and leave the concerned parties in this matter sort it out in their own way without anymore "suggestions" from you Wilhelm.

Thanks, and I appreciated the answer. I didn't understand at first hence I asked but lately I am seeing the whole idea of how the modding and freeware principles should ideally work. :)

I would like to present my view, which is:
Both present and non-present modders and their work need credits!
That's it! No more!

Permissions needed? No! But best!

Then let me ask another thing:
I have downloaded mods containing NO readme file whatsoever about who created that mod!
Then what?
Neither permission or credits are possible then!

Well its a valid point Hitman raised

I have some single missions from the community I want to use in GWX
All authors still around have agreed but some I have no idea of how to contact and others havent been on the forum here for a couple of years

Those sorts of things are easy as a simple cedit will do - the missions were written for SH3 1.0 lol so shows how old they are and have had a fair bit of work done to them by me to make GWX 1.04 compliant

Any other stuff generally speaking that will included in 1.04 is fresh and new and the modders are still about so it isnt a problem

Now if a modder says NO then I wont include anything of theirs
Simple

I think, that in it case not place autor and mod unname. In other variant we havy my post primer.

Modding policy proposals

#1: Ask permission.

#2 Do not assume that the individual received the message.

#3 If permission is denied... accept it... and do not use the mod.

#4 "Blanket crediting" is unacceptable and lazy. If you are not sure how to credit something... ASK!!!

#5 If you are called on to correct your credits... don't get offended... just deal with it and fix it.

#6 If an organized mod package is actively supported by its creator... and you want to make an overlay for it that changes the original package to suit your taste... and then release it... deal with 1-5 first... and don't even think of including the entire original mod package. Doing so leaves the impression that you are the primary creator even if you say otherwise loudly and repeatedly... and is a NO NO!!!

will add more proposals after a bit of coffee.

So we have basically two different points of view:

1.- If the author can't be contacted, use the mod but give credit

2.- If the author can't be contacted, stay away from using the mod. Don't think you have implicit authorization by the simple lack of reply.

That's already two positions for discussing.

We also seem to have agreement in two points:

1.- Always give credit for whatever work of others you use

2.- Never use a mod against the express will of his creator

OK I will open a new topic thread -sticky- to include those points for modder's ethics that are have agreement by everyone. Do not reply there, just go on discussing here and I will post the results there.

I'd like to raise another question:

What about the use of mods that also include mods from others?.

Example: A mod is done to allow the use of long leather jackets in good weather. The work is done from scratch, but textures from the Elite Uniform mod are used (With permission from author). Now I am creating a super-mod and get permission from the creator of the "Leather jackets for good weather" mod. Shall I also get permission from the author of the Elite crew uniform mods?

Well, the real problem comes when one asks the inevitable 'or what?'. So long as you work in the vein of public domain, you will have no legal recourse. You are utilizing UBI's, EA's, Sonalysts or whoever's program as a basis for your mods. Accordingly, the link with even intellectual property is reaching at best. The discussion of protocol becomes, as such, academic in the light that the protocol itself is not enforcable.

I understand that you work hard. I also sympathize with your desire to keep your work as your own, and to have it recognized. Unfortunately, it just seems that the law, which is what you would need, is not on your side. An honest programmer is going to ask you. One that is not so scrupulous will just tell you to get lost, rules or not.

@Carotio

One question if I may!!
If it wasn't for the existence of GWX and WAC, just what in hell would you be plagiarizing ? :hmm:

It's only because of the existence of these mods which were based upon countless hours of talented peoples efforts that you have something to leech off.
Try putting similar thought and effort into something of your own and make it JSGME compatible...some sort of mini add on...some work that is truly that of your own creation and then...only then will you perhaps get some form of recognition.

Better still...start reading the threads and count all those supportive posts out there....then listen to all the voices raised in support of you....I think you'll find the silence is deafening :arrgh!:

Concerning modders who are no longer active with the community... and obtaining permissions for their previous mod work...

There should be some sort of "abandonement clause" I guess that would allow the work to go back into circulation after 90 days of no activity by said person... or something like it.

(again as long as proper crediting is observed)

Also, there should be some sort of method to deal with offenses... first and second etc.

OK, new thread added here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=114540

Please stay away by now from the discussion about commercially copyrighted stuff (Das Boot sounds, scenes, etc.). We can discuss that later, but for now it would be the most interesting to be able to set some basic rules of courtesy between modders.

That's exactly why the topic was opened with the word "ETHICS". This does not go about legal matters, but about courtesy and ethics. The rules Kpt. Lehman proposed that we adopt are of course just ethic, but the power of being able to say that someone is not following them is not irrelevant, believe me.

1) GWX is not about "me" as much as people might like to make it such. I do feel a great deal of loyalty to it. I can't help it.

2) No legal recourse is expected... however, recourse can and should be expected within the community itself. The idea of self-policing isn't unreasonable... and would prevent a lot of crap. That's all. This place does have a great deal of influence.

[Edit/Addenda] Until now there has been no protocol and no roadmap. There should be one.

- Well, stop modding and I would still continue to shape the game as I want, untill I'm done with what I want to do!
- My supporters rarely write supporting posts here at subsim, they use PMs or mails! Maybe one reason why I continue is because some like my changes!
- Well, you asked, so you got an answer! ;)