Except the war was not just between Japan and the US SubSerpent, why does everyone forget the rest of Asia? China lost about 10 million for example. I am not happy about the a-bombs and think they should have been used as Dowly suggested, and don't deny what these people suffered, but I read somewhere only 5% of deaths in all of WWII were Axis civilians. I doubt that would change much even with the radiation sickness etc.

Oh, keep the Swastika in WWII games please, as long as you leave the choice for those who don't want it and respect the laws of certain countries.

Dowly mate you could say the same about the City Bombing of Coventry and London by the LuftWaffe, Berlin and Dresden RAF bomber command and the mass firebombing of Nagoya,Osaka,Kobe and Tokyo by the USAAF. In Tokyo 100,000 Japanese died in one raid.This may have been the most devastating single raid ever carried out by aircraft in any war including the The Atomic bombs. Around 16 square miles (41 km²) of the city were destroyed in the FireStorm. The destruction and damage was at its worst in the city sections east of the Imperial Palace. In the following two weeks there were almost 1,600 further sorties against the four cities, destroying 31 square miles (80 km²) in total at a cost of 22 aircraft. There was a third raid on Tokyo on May 26.That fact of the matter is values have changed. We are more aware of collateral damage these days and with the advent of "smart" weapons mass bombing is no longer used in poputalted areas. We will never see another World War fought like WWI, WWII..put simply WWIV will be fought with rocks and sticks.( If anyone is left )

Back on topic..I like the swastica..not what it stood for when the Nazi party adopted it.It's a part of history so i would like to see it in game and how ever much we try we cannot erase histroy...what ever country you come from i'm sure there is a piece of dark histroy we would love to erase. We can't change History but WE CAN LEARN FROM IT!!

Yes, I could say the same of any attack made towards pure civilian targets.

Trust me, I was tempted to insult Deputy with every insulting word I know, both english ones and finnish ones. But then again, that would´ve only grow the flames bigger and I would most likely have been banned for that. :yep:

Anyways, I do understand Deputy, he obviously loves his country, as his reactions showed. I wouldnt want someone to point me the 'black pages' of finnish history, like the civil war we had in the beginning of the 1910 with it´s mass executions and all the crap that happened.

And to reply SkvyWvr´s post:

It´s easy to say that now, in 2006, when we know what Hitler did during the WWII. Remember, outside of Germany very very very few knew about the concentration camps until allies liberated them. So, if germany was the devil when Finland made the pact, it would be because germany was the one who started the war with it´s attacks on Poland, France etc. But would that make Stalin devil too? He attacked Finland just to get what he wanted (Tho, Finns still manned most of the land we lost in truce)? Stalin acted like Hitler did in the border of Poland, Stalin claimed that finns had fired artillery rounds across the border to Soviet Union and said that provocated Soviets to attack Finland. Finns didnt have any artillery in the area at that time and Soviet Union later admitted that the rounds were fired by it´s own artillery to make the attack to look like it was defensive action by Soviets. Also, remember, german troops were mainly stationed to Lapland, from where FINNISH troops drove them away.

Of course we took every help we could get, including help from France, UK, Sweden, Italy (which gave us 50 fighters, but germany didnt allow them to reach Finland) and Poland (Offered troops, but Sweden didnt allow them to move across Sweden to Finland).

You didnt see US in the list. Reason is: There was no declaration of war between Soviets and Finns, so in theory the countries werent in state of war. Without the american press, we wouldnt had any help from US. The press raised 6mil dollars to send for finns.

So, as you see, finns didnt get too much of a help from anywhere else than germany. Tho, there was few americans working as ambulance drivers in the frontlines. :up:


Yes, most of the battles took place in the Karelian Isthmus, BUT not all the troops were there. Basically, the whole east border of Finland was attacked in the start of the hostilities.

I have relatives who fought in WWI,WWII ( English, American and German ), Policing in Egypt,The Falkland conflict, gulf war 1990 and i have a mate who is in Iraq as i type this..If fighting/ Defending for your own country i have no problem with, But "World Wars i agree with Boris..The US and UK / Commonwealth forces are always spear heading coalition operations. Why? because we are the only ones dumb enough to do it.
Yes because in a state of war you will ALWAYS get the latest invovations to "be" better equiped/ stronger than the "Other" side.
When in peace newer inovations will be drip fed due to not being urgent.

:oops: I wish to apologize for the devil comment. You are right, your nation did what it had to do to survive a madman's attack. Again, please accept my apology.

Well this has been a VERY informative/amusing/bizarre discussion so far.
#1 I have found out that the US and England are fools and dumb for being willing to fight for freedom in other countries at the cost of the lives of their own troops.

#2 I have found out that no matter how much your country does for the world, some people will ALWAYS look at the negative side of things. I guess Liberalism is alive and well in the rest of thr world. That's the attitude of Liberals in the US. I thank God I'm a Conservative. And I thank God my country had the courage to fight for countries in Europe that now stab the US in the back. I wonder how many times you have to liberate France and certain other European countries before they learn to say "thank you"? I guess it will never happen.

#3 I learned that there is MUCH envy of the power and might of the US. Oh well...SOMEBODY has to be the policeman on the block and protect the little guys.
I sure don't see any Euro-countries (with the exception of England) doing that.
If it wasn't us, it would have been the Soviet Union. SH3 wouldn't even exist if that happenned. And most likely much of the internet wouldn't exist either. That's okay...you guys don't have to say thank you...i'll just say "you're welcome" on behalf of our "oppressive US regime" and leave it at that.

#4 Even though the US is always one of the first countries to "come to the rescue" when there are emergencies and natural disasters, with the most money and assistance, even to enemies of the US, people still don't like us. I guess there's just no pleasing some folks.

Some of you guys can't let go of the "military" train of thought when it comes to wars. The advancements I was referring to that occured during wartime involved the advancements in medical treatment, space exploration, and sources of energy.
All of which are used during peacetime to make our lifestyles better.

The simple fact is war has been with mankind since the first time the caveman clubbed his neighbor over the head for stealing his woman/land/water hole/etc. It will BE with us for a very long time to come. Get used to it and prepare for it. That way you won't be caught with your pants down when the jihadists or whatever other loonies start setting off dirty bombs or other nastiness in your area.

I believe in peace...PEACE THROUGH SUPERIOR FIREPOWER.

Dep

Whoa ok, I think I'll leave it at that. I won't be able to change your mind anyway. I don't hate the US, I'm just not afraid to criticise it nor anything else. Nothing is perfect, not even the US. Sure you're country has achieved a lot, and that's cool. But to say the US is the foundation of modern civilisation is a bit of a stretch.
I could say a million things to refute all you said, but why bother... we'd be here for days arguing.
You obviously love your country, and I shouldn't argue against that. Yes, your views are exteme right, but I guess thats what you get if you're from New Mexico. A lot of what you said is obviously a product of the society you grew up in, and I can't hold that against you. I'm not having a go at you at all, you have no idea how radical your views sound to me, having come from a different backround.

You ask yourself why some people don't like the US... it's because of things such as what you wrote above. It shows a lack of global awareness and implies a love of violence. Most people in other countries don't like that, trust me... and your irrational dislike of liberalism? Just more people to hate, just like commies or arabs right?
But like I said, it's not your fault.

"Whoa ok, I think I'll leave it at that. I won't be able to change your mind anyway. I don't hate the US, I'm just not afraid to criticise it nor anything else."

You shouldn't be afraid to criticise it. Nobody said it was perfect, including me. I have a good many gripes about things in the US and don't hesitate to complain to my political representatives. That's another part of what makes this country so great. :)


"Nothing is perfect, not even the US."

Never said it was perfect. But I'll take living here over anywhere else. Gotta be something good here, since so many people from other countries are willing to violate our immigration laws to come here and live. Or wait on long lists to do it legally.

"Sure you're country has achieved a lot, and that's cool. But to say the US is the foundation of modern civilisation is a bit of a stretch."

Never said that at all. Please don't insert words into my mouth. I said it was the protector of the civilized world, which it is.

"I could say a million things to refute all you said, but why bother... we'd be here for days arguing."

Feel free...unless the mods say don't. I keep hearing this "I could give you a million reasons" stuff, but I don't see ONE reason posted.

"You obviously love your country, and I shouldn't argue against that."

Nothing to argue about, I do love my country. Everyone should love their country :D

"Yes, your views are exteme right, but I guess thats what you get if you're from New Mexico."

Whoa pardner!!!!....you're WAY off on that one. New Mexico is a VERY left wing/Liberal state. I just moved here from Illinois (also a Liberal state) in January and am finding that out every day. Best thing New Mexico has is good pro-gun laws. Concealed carry is permitted in NM...forbidden in Illinois.

"A lot of what you said is obviously a product of the society you grew up in, and I can't hold that against you."

Actually, there were Liberals and Conservatives in the society I grew up in. I simply agree with the Conservatives who believe LESS government is better and I chose to support them.

"I'm not having a go at you at all, you have no idea how radical your views sound to me, having come from a different backround."

Yes, I suspect most of Europe has a strong Socialist leaning. I can see that from the posts of some folks on here. I apologize for calling Euros Liberals BTW...that's the term we use in the US for that type of thinking. I also suspect you guys believe Bill Clinton was the best President the US ever had :lol:

"You ask yourself why some people don't like the US... it's because of things such as what you wrote above."

You mean the truth? Yeah...some folks just can't handle it.

"It shows a lack of global awareness and implies a love of violence."

Ahhh yes...you are referring to the "New World Order" and the "globalizing" of the world. Yep...I'm dead against it. We have our US Constitution and I sure don't want the rest of the world dictating what my rights should be. I'm quite happy with the way our founding fathers set things up. If someone attacks us, we fight back. The only other country I know of that has that attitude is Israel. They have my highest respect and admiration.

"Most people in other countries don't like that, trust me... and your irrational dislike of liberalism?"

Irrational??? LOL...now THAT would be a large topic to discuss. I prefer to take care of myself. I don't need the government meddling in my life and all those social welfare programs that waste taxpayer money.

"Just more people to hate, just like commies or arabs right?"

Do I hate Commies? Not any more. We can thank Ronald Regan for eliminating the threat from that vermin. Do I hate Arabs? Nope. Do I believe the propaganda that Islam is a peaceful religion? No way. Just read translations of the Koran to prove to yourself that it isn't peaceful, no matter how much they may deny it on TV.

Dep

Yeah, ok... sorry, it's just that you sounded like some sort of gun toting, tabacco chewing, redneck yokel in your last post

Ok, sorry I had to dig this up to just insert some comments...

I've been to the States twice this year with work. Texas even...I rather enjoyed myself. And you know what ? The thing that surprised me most is that far from being the gun-loving commie hating tobacco chewin liberal loathing republican stereotypes that they are often painted as, I actually found the greater majority of Texans I met to be very friendly and hospitable. In fact a few of them, quite a lot even, weren't too happy with Mr. Bush and the image he'd given them both at home and abroad.

Then Dep came along :rotfl:

It's cool man...you're perfectly entitled to say what you said. But even a lot of Americans know that their media is strictly controlled. I would also like to point out that it was these so called 'Liberals' you hate that opposed British rule in the Colonies, wrote the U.S. Constitution, abolished slavery, and gave ordinary people like you and me the right to vote.

But for the purpose of swinging this thread back on topic, I have no problem with shegeek displaying a historically correct WW2 Kreigsmarine flag on a WW2 U-boat simulation forum. If you hung it from your front window, then I might worry.

mac: Your experience is fairly common. But just because you don't SEE the guns, doesn't mean they ain't there. Texas has concealed carry too ;)
I don't chew tabaccy and I no longer hate Commies because they are no longer a viable threat any more. Well....I suppose the nutcase in Korea is a mild threat.
I am Liberal-loathing. Their answer to ANY probelm is raise taxes and throw money at it. Dubya may have done some things wrong, but he did put money back in our pockets. And the US economy seems to be alive and well no matter how much the doom-and-gloom Liberals say it is in trouble. Actually, the stock market seems to be doing better than ever :)
Am I worried about our image at home? I'm more worried about the thousands of illegal aliens swarming across the border. That's one of Bush's failures. And it smokes me to no end that he wants to give the illegals that are here amnesty.
Am I worried about our image overseas? Nope...couldn't care less.

As far as our media being strictly controlled...you are CORRECT!!! They are strictly controlled by LIBERAL ideas. All three major networks as well as CNN (Communist News Network) and HNN are just Liberal/left wing propaganda machines. FOX News is the one exception and is the ONLY channel that should be watched for fair and balanced information as well as just REPORTING the news instead of editorializing it.

You are playing with words when you associate the founding fathers with the term "Liberal", as used in present day definition. The present term of Liberal refers to the definition that evolved from the New Deal and the Great Society and that seeks to “bring about greater social equality through reliance on the federal government.”
That was NOT what the founding fathers had in mind. Liberal to them meant “Favorable to constitutional changes and legal or administrative reforms tending in the direction of freedom or democracy" and “free from restraint; free in speech or action”. Hardly what the Libs of modern day represent.

Okay...here's one for you to twist around....is the United States a Democracy?
I'll save you the Google search, since the answer is NO!

Dep

I live in NYC, I have heard many tales about southern States and their population's particular point of view.

Now I realize that they are not tales... they are facts. :nope::nope::nope:

I am worried that those right wing extremists can push new legislations against the rest of America. :-?

Ummmm...here's a newsflash for you. New Mexico is NOT a "southern state".
It fought on the side of the Union in the Civil War. It's a WESTWERN state. Right wing extremist...hardly. Conservative...DEFINITELY. And a a loyal "dittohead" too :up:
As a matter of fact, I am actively working to get the Castle Doctrine put into law in New Mexico.

Dep