The Lebonese Gov't doesn't seem to care all that much about innocent civilians because they will not accept a cease fire with a robust UN force. What's that about? Soverengty? If they are so concerned about lost lives lets stop the shooting. Work out the details later. The Lebonese don't care much for UN resolutions in any case (resolution 1559). Seems to me if you want the civilians to stop dying, at this point, accept the cease fire!

You are rewriting history. The Lebanese government began pleading for an immediate ceasefire right from day 1 while it was Israel who rejected, repeatedly, these petitions stating they needed 'just another week or two'... and that was 4 weeks ago.

I'm not re-writing anything. A cease fire was put on the table and Lebonon rejected it.

It's the cease fire that you claim Lebonon has been asking for since day one. At this point the Leboneze Gov't is just as culpable in innocent civilian deaths as Isreal.

Hmm... consider this photograph, which was taken in Lithuania circa 1941:


Depicted on the left, the guys with the guns, are four members of the SS Einsatzgruppen Group A whose task it was to follow behind the advancing German army and liquidate any Jews living in these territories. The people in the center, kneeling over the freshly dug graves, are four Jewish civilians about to executed for the crime of being Jewish and in Lithuania after the Germans had just invaded it, while on the far right spectators (presumably Lithuanian civilians) look on. But Before I ask you my question, a note on Lithuania itself:

From 1918-1939 it had been a sovereign, independent state, but was annexed and occupied by the Soviets as part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of August 23, 1939 (it is less formally known as the German-Soviet Nonaggression Treaty) which secretly carved up the Baltic countries between the Soviets and the Germans; however that agreements was not to last very long, as by June 22, 1941, Germany was to break it and invade the Soviet Union..

Now then, my question: where do you place responsibility for the bullets that are about to shatter the 4 Jewish skulls depicted above? Do you place responsibility on the 4 members of Einsatzgruppen Group A, the SS they were run by, the Nazi government that had implemented the pogrom they were carrying out, or do you instead place it on our Soviet Allies for not immediately surrendering to the Germans? Or do you place it on the unarmed spectators? Or perhaps on the deposed Lithuanian government? Or maybe you blame these 4 Jews themselves, for not leaving their homes in what had only a year ago been peaceful, sovereign Lithuania before being annexed by the Soviet Union and then invaded by Nazi Germany?

Or perhaps you'd simply dismiss it as being staged as part of the allied propaganda efforts against Germany, and given the way this thread has gone I suspect a lot of others would too (the fascist Nazi government being only a little further to the right in its ideology than the blogs making these spurious charges, these people would probably fit right in with Goebbels and his lot).

The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Wicked bad analogy dude! :lol:

The Germans in that picture are definitely not returning the fire of allied soldiers hiding behind those civilians. As a matter of fact it is a much closer analogy to the type of fighting that groups like Hezbollah and Hamas prefer with their rocket attacks against suburbs devoid of IDF troops and their bloody raids where they capture, torture, murder and set fire to the bodies of Isreali civilians or shoot up commuter busses.

So try again. But here's a tip, comparing your forum opponents to nazis rarely works. It normally is a sign of a loosing argument.

OK, that happened 65 years ago. Lets try to stay in the here and now shall we?

You stated the Leboneze Gov't was asking for a cease fire from day one . If they were really concerned with the loss of lives among their innocent citizens, why would they reject a cease fire now?

If you'd like to change the argument then start a new thread. I'm of the mind that you misinterpreted the way the Lebononeze feel about their people. There is no shame in that admission. Perhaps you will re-assess your conceptions.

P.S. Your arguments depend too greatly on the internet. You're a bright fella, but you need to choose your battles.

Really?

"I spoke with the head military lawyer for the IDF, Yoel Zinger, and I said 'you know I spent two weeks here and its clear you people are inflicting Nuremburg crimes on the Palestinians, exactly what the Nazis did to the Jews. What's your explanation?' He said 'military necessity', notice he didn't disagree with me. I said 'that arguement was rejected at Nuremburg when the lawyer's for the Nazis made it.' So then he said 'well we have public relations people in the United States and they handle these matters for us.'" -- Francis Boyle, Professor of International Law

But that's a separate conflict, isn't it? So back to Lebanon, and the lie so often repeated that civilians in Lebanon are being killed, and in such numbers, because Hezbollah is using them as human shields and "human sandbags":

http://hrw.org/reports/2006/lebanon0...#_Toc142299220

Clear enough? Or do you still want to go on believing and repeating the lie? If so, then at least watch these 4 short videos to see that which we never see here in North America. It will likely not shake your convictions, but it should clearly illustrate some of the absurdity in the lies we keep hearing:

http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html

Lastly, one last thing for you to consider, from Ynet:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/1,7...283720,00.html

That last quote there best explains everything to me. Its not that there are no civilians being killed in Lebanon, whether Christian or Muslim civilians, whether old, sick, young, or female, but that because this war is with Lebanon then none of the Lebanese are innocents but all are the enemy, and all are fair game and no different from the Hezbollah terrorist.

Now tell me again how absurd the comparison to Nazi Germany is, because this kind of racial supremacist ends justifies the means garbage is what Hitler preached in Mein Kampf.

[Edit] if nothing else look at the last clip, it was one that was aired on CBC - but never in the US - and was never supposed to have been aired anywhere; the video, shot by an embedded Israeli film crew, shows the IDF blowing the door off a home they are raiding and mortally wounding the Palestinian woman on the other side of it. Then you see her husband, who at that point thought his wife would live, begging the IDF to allow an ambulance through, but they delay it, and the woman dies. Afterward one of the soldier says "I don't know what we're doing here, purification maybe. Its dirty here and I don't know why a good Hebrew boy should be here so far from his home." And then, finally, after the tape sees the light of day it was never supposed to, an IDF spokesman says, regarding the delay evacuating the dying woman, "it was a mistake". Gee where have I heard those words before? And how many times now?

What a load of politically motivated horse hockey. Show me the ovens, show me the death camps, show me the mass executions, then we'll talk about Nuremburg type crimes.

"Limited or dubious military gain" is an opinion made by who? HRW? I was not aware they were also military experts, but in any case, your knights in Islamic armor Hezbollah recently kidnapped a Jewish civilian, tortrured him, killed him, then burned his body. Where is the military gain in that?

Scandium seriously, how do you sleep at night so strongly defending people who deliberately attack civilians for absolutely NO military gain at all?

Still mischaracterizing my position and insisting on taking the blue pill eh? I gather you looked at none of those short clips I provided the link to here http://brasscheck.com/videos/middleeast/me5.html

What are you afraid you might see? Well I'll give you a heads up to try and remove some of your fear (though of course I can't make you watch them - after all you can only lead a horse to water, you can't make him drink):

#1 clip is a 4 minute interview between a British journalist and an Israeli ambassador. The journalist grills him while the ambassador squirms and answers with the same talking points you and others repeat here. The contrast between the questions and the answers provided are still striking, however, and you will never see this on American TV.

#2 clip is another 4 minute interview, this time between a British journalist (a very good looking one too, as an aside) and an IDF spokeswoman. She too is grilled with tough questions that she only repeats the same talking points to that you parrot here. But again, the contrast between questions and answers is striking and you won't see this on American TV either.

#3 clip is 5 minutes and is mostly various US politicians, former politicians, former ambassadors, foreign policy experts, and such going on record with statements you have likely never seen or read before.

#4 clip I've already summarized, it is 3 minutes.

If any of that should arouse your intellectual curiousity - assuming you have any - then this will provide many answers to it http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...84920696&hl=en

That is a documentary called Peace, Prosperity, & The Promised Land and it is a bit longer - 1 hour, 20 minutes. Among the interviewed are Rabbi Lerner, an IDF Major, Professor of Journalism, and several other experts - in one manner or another - on Israeli policy and/or how it is depicted in the U.S versus other parts of the world. And again, you will see footage, and hear thing, that you've never been exposed to before and never knew existed.

You have been indoctrinated from birth, like all Americans (and Canadians as well, since we are exposed to so much of your media), to have a very biased, one sided view of Israel that completely lacks the necessary context and the other dimension that has been systematically censored such that you never see it, and naturally don't even know what it is you've never been exposed to.

I offer the other dimension, and unless and until you open your eyes and take a good long look at it, then further debate with you is pointless and can lead nowhere as you'll only be able to repeat the same empty talking points.

News from the Twilight Zone:

http://drinkingfromhome.blogspot.com...t-edition.html

http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/20...hezbollah.html

Its not the Twilight Zone, its the naive, silly, uninitiated zone.

I'm begining to think that the illusion of a perfect world has been perpetuated on these sorry lots by their dodding parents. Its not their fault. Having never made their way in the world, they just don't know which end is up.

Never having to make a living, raise children, pay for others lack of ambition, or protected their country, have resulted in the liberal, proggresive ideology which we see on this forum. We must remember they are young and impressionable. With mommy and daddy protecting them it is easy to have such views.

There is that war crimes statement again. Be it from Isreal or any other party.
The winners say what is a war crime. No one else. Its like the UN saying cease fire. Who listens? Without the power to back it up the statement is of no value.

Don't think I don't appreciate the rest of the video Yahoshua. I am aligned with the message. Its just the war crimes bit that takes me back a bit.

I'm just posting the material. I didn't say it was aimed at you or anyone else.

I'm just throwing it out there.