SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - I Hate Single Ship Contacts!!!!

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- - I Hate Single Ship Contacts!!!! (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=95281)

I like to have single contacts reports.

I really have not problem to have single contacs in add to convoy and task forces contacts.

Any way i can decide to go or not for that single contact, wich can be an easy and juicy target, some times i take hands on them with my deck gun.

:up:

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Originally Posted by Magua

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Originally Posted by Pablo

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Originally Posted by Magua

My final thoughts on the subject are that in my readings there are an infinite number of descriptions of U-Boat Commanders finding and sinking single ships they just stumbled upon with no warnings. An infinite number. And how many times have I read the opposite.....never. I have an extensive library. (10 years of collectiing!)
I think the goal of a good Historical Simulation is to simulate the typical most accurate situation, not "how it could have been".

You may want to acquire (or read more closely) Hitler's U-boat War, by Clay Blair (Book II, Chapter 7, Section: "A New Convoy Plan"):

Quote:

As the U-boats of the first wave drew close to the North American coast, B-dienst picked up the distress call of a Greek vessel that had dropped out of a convoy 180 miles east of Newfoundland with a broken rudder. Dönitz notified Reinhard Hardegen in U-123 and authorized him to investigate if he was no more than 150 miles away. Although Hardegen was over twice that distance from the stricken ship, he ignored the restriction and closed on the position, eager for a kill. But when he found the Greek, she was surrounded by a tug and two "destroyers," an enemy force that cooled Hardegen's ardor. He aborted the attack and resumed his slow, one-engine journey to New York, regretting this brash and useless expenditure of fuel.

I think that pretty clearly settles the issue of whether a U-boat ever received notification of a single merchant ship.

Pablo

Yep, happened one time in six years of the war...:up: The only documented case. The broken rudder steamer was sitting there sending out lots of distress calls.

Now I wonder how many times they found single merchants with no help from BDU......hmmmm Now that would be a big number! I guess then the question is should single ship contacts be used in the game, when there is only one case of it happening historically?

Hi Magua!

The point is that your conclusion (based on your historical research) that a U-boat never received the game-equivalent of a single ship report has now been shown to have been incorrect, since a verified case of a single ship contact has been found. I think this completely refutes the argument that single ship contacts should be eliminated from the game because there is no record of one actually happenening in real life.

BTW, the quote is "picked up the distress call" and not "picked up lots of distress calls."

We therefore know that it happened once, and that the bureaucratic apparatus was in place at BdU and B-dienst to allow it to happen again should a signal be detected, but I don't think we can really know how many more times this happened during the war, for a number of reasons: (1) the loss of B-dienst intercepts and BdU RF transmissions during the German collapse at the end of the war; (2) incomplete narratives from surviving U-boat commanders and logbooks (e.g., how did the U-boat "find" or "stumble upon" the merchant? Visual sighting? RF direction finding?); (3) U-boats that did not return and took their log books with them to the bottom of the sea. If you have found a deliberate BdU policy in this regard please let us know.

I personally ignore single ship contacts (as Hardegen probably should have done) rather than burn fuel chasing all over the ocean after them.

Pablo

Remember how many people were clamoring for the opportunity to shoot at survivors in the water? Well, that only happened once during the war, and people are still complaining that they can't!

Heck, if we can shoot at survivors, why can't the U-boat be sunk by a malfunctioning toilet? That happened once, as well!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magua

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Originally Posted by Pablo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Magua

You may want to acquire (or read more closely) Hitler's U-boat War, by Clay Blair (Book II, Chapter 7, Section: "A New Convoy Plan"):

Quote:

I think that pretty clearly settles the issue of whether a U-boat ever received notification of a single merchant ship.

Pablo

Yes, we have one single case of it happening. One Time.

And how many reports/descriptions to the contrary......Endless Numbers.
Do you base the high prevelance of single ship contacts in the game and some mods on this one case?

There are an infinite number of descriptions describing the single ships being spotted with no warning at all. It's hard to go by "what might have been".

It just depends on how Historical You choose to play. Your option. Since Prien Sneaked into Scapa Flow, should I sail into every Harbor in England Looking for Battleships? The Type XXI SUB, cool, lets go on patrol with that! I know there is a raging Hurricane Outside, but lets load those External Torpedoes Anyway!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pablo

I personally ignore single ship contacts (as Hardegen probably should have done) rather than burn fuel chasing all over the ocean after them.

Pablo

I'm sure, though I don't have the facts to hand, that the majority of U-Boat kills were single ships sailing alone. There's a mystique about wolfpacks and convoys, but convoys were there for a reason - they worked. It's part of the reason why the Type IX was the most successful boat and not the Type VII. The BdU would hit the roof when he read your patrol report. Aggression and make the most of the targets you have!

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Originally Posted by Magua

If you hate single ship contacts so much, why don't you just sink them? :rotfl:

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Originally Posted by Subnuts

yes, I remember those debates! Good Points Subnuts! :up:

I started using the 20/20 mod the day it was released. It reduces single ships to 20% of the original, and then reduces the contact reports to 20% of their original. The result: very few contacts, and those only for ships within (I think) 300 kilometers of your position.

It was included in RUB, but I think the newer supermods have changed it.

Oh look - Single shipping reports from uboats

F.d.U./B.d.U.'S War Log
1 - 15 November 1942
PG30313A

http://www.uboatarchive.net/BDUKTB30313A.htm

U 563 reports ship traveling alone in BE 2647 on course 00. Pursuit was broken off because of excessive use of lubricating oil. 4)U 440 operated against single ship on courses in CG 7535 at 1418 hours. No attack because of high speed.

5)U 606 missed shot on single ship in AK 6839, course 2200, speed 16 knots

5)U 117 sighted two-stack steamers in AK 8926, course 400, speed 14 knots

3)U 218 reported fast ship sailing alone in AK 9549, which disappeared after being followed for a while.

2)U 522 sighted a two-funneled passenger steamer in AK 6652 on course 1800. Pursuit was discontinued because speed of ship was too great. The same ship was possibly sighted by U 263 in AL 4177 on course 2500.

3)U 462 again sighted a large tanker on S.E. course in EH 6851

c)U-boat sightings: FB 2711, FK 1162, CA 3794.
Sightings by aircraft: in BF 4832.
SOS message from Norwegian tanker "South Africa" (9,234 tons) in DQ 3750.
SSS message from unknown steamer in KZ 4612.

2)U 183 situation: Single ship and convoy movements in BB 8175

U 106 situation: Only 1 steamer sighted in BB. Heavy sea patrols both by single ships and groups, medium air patrols. Boat operating further in BB and CB 20

U 68 also given permission for freedom of action on her return cruise because of Italian U-boat's report of ship movements in the area.

4)U 438 lost contact on a steamer in BD 3853, two stacks, course northward, speed 16 knots

2)Situation and sighting reports: U 171 in KY 6968, ship "Cerion", sailing empty was engaged by artillery over a period of 2 days and nights in heavy swells, course 2400. Artillery action broken off due to failure of U-boat gun. 15 November ship "California" pursued in vain. Course 2700, speed 16 knots.

U 504 FU 8788 supply ship, course S.E. speed 16 knots.

U 160 15 November an empty freighter in EO 1568, course 3100.

U 462 again sighted a large tanker on S.E. course in EH 6851.

Quote:

Heck, if we can shoot at survivors, why can't the U-boat be sunk by a malfunctioning toilet? That happened once, as well!

Subnuts: which sub was that? I'm curious as I've never heard this before.

Kind regards,

Eichenlaub

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eichenlaub

Quote:

Heck, if we can shoot at survivors, why can't the U-boat be sunk by a malfunctioning toilet? That happened once, as well!

Subnuts: which sub was that? I'm curious as I've never heard this before.

Allegedly U-1206 (not U-120 as usually suggested).

Some related links...
http://www.mathison.freeserve.co.uk/id25.htm
http://www.armed-combat.com/item_uk....0%9A%C3%82%C2%
http://web.ukonline.co.uk/chalcraft/sm/domestics.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Nice reports .The Issue was not that ships sailed alone, it was over how they were found in the first place. Your findings state "sighted" (with the eyeballs) a ship. There is nothing there that says BDU directed them to the single ship, nor that those sighted ships were subsequently sunk by other U-Boats from the reports.

I've said all along that the vast majority of single ships were found simply by being sighted. Your evidence supports that view.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

Aha, another transmission from BDU to make us aware what's happening. I'll tell Navigator to put reported contacts on the map which are within the 300 km radius. Some of them may lead us to a convoy. :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sergbuto

Exactly Serg
Even if you didnt recieve reports from BDU direct you would have picked up radio reports from the sending Uboat and ploted them on the map
If they were close to your location you might have thought about an intercept course

I dont recall the game ever telling me the location of a ship so as to go and sink it
It provides a mark on a map ( as my navigator would have done ) and its up to me as to whether I go after it or ignore it

That report is just a few lines from a 2 week period in Nov 1942

If I had the time and inclination to go thru the whole war would find hundreds more
But I dont:rotfl:

Oh and those are radio reports IN to BDU not out

PSE OM HR MSG BT
NR 1 CK 63 0716 1735 BT
OZNK GXYX DFXI CACD LOOW HTXB WHFJ ZUGD LKMI VOGI
LGIJ NMGD LFJN SJNH AOSK MRGI LRPF LAKA NNFQ GVIV
DENH LKWE ZGGQ ZCVH ZLUQ BZKQ QCNV GSFE JMOJ QMEH
RQEM DSOA MKHM JUXU JWAI XAYY PRNU DNXT TZVB LISB
BKYY NACR FHOK ZRGK AKRF YGQD LQLM RWKL RMAJ OUUE
SSKA FXTV WPMF IAZA DJUG WDLX NARL XXKZ YHZN QULS
SXOP TGNU YCMN
BT AR K

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