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-   Dangerous Waters (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/forumdisplay.php?f=181)
-   -   A neat little trick? (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=93903)

Fish 06-06-06 06:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimsalot
As I have stated a few times, I don't think this is a cheat in the technical sense; to be honest, my intent was to let others in the community, including alot of people I like, know about this.
If I see a tactic that I think is "dirty", I will let the world know, so we can come up with a way to defeat it.
In the past I did the same thing about a sub sitting in 30 feet of water when I was in a P3.

Since I was the host, my understanding is that it can't be a database switch, so I just feel it's a "dirty" tactic, and I let people know.
If they choose to dive with the person now, it's up to them.
EDIT: A "friend" of this individual just let me know that he admits he was using a SLMM.
It could be the SLMM was above layer, and the sub below, and torps are just spoofed.:hmm:
In that way, it's just a tactic, not a cheat.

Kurushio 06-06-06 07:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimsalot
I disagree about a need to apologize, sir.
I see the tactic of driving in front of an SLMM is taking advantage of a torp seeker code that Sonalysts is either unaware of or didn't forsee the possibility.
My understanding is that a real MK48 would probably kill the sub anyways, and go right by the SLMM.
Therefore, I see this as an exploit of an inherent weakness in the torp seeker doctrine.
To me, that is dirty. Maybe not technically a cheat, but not my style of play.
I see no need to apologize for pointing out that some players
(1 at least) use this tactic.
Therefore I retract my apology and stand by my original comments.

When you play multiplayer, before doing something, ask yourself, could this be done in real life? If not...THEN STOP IT! :stare:

suBB 06-06-06 08:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurushio
Therefore I retract my apology and stand by my original comments.

When you play multiplayer, before doing something, ask yourself, could this be done in real life? If not...THEN STOP IT! :stare:

This is the second time around the same old maple tree, i should say the bilge pump lol

Someone correct me if im wrong.. but this 'little trick' is rather an old hat on 1.03 stock, WHICH WAS SUCCESSFULLY OWNED BY LWAMI LONG AGO. AFAIK, addressing this issue of using slmms as decoys is one of many reasons WHY LWAMI was released.

So with that being said, whats the problem? The guy who is 'cheating' is choosing his own battles and those who dive against him in stock are falling victim to it. From what I've read so far this only occurs on 1.03 stock.

Dive against him in LWAMI and see if his trumpet doesn't toot a different tune

suBB 06-06-06 08:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fish
It could be the SLMM was above layer, and the sub below, and torps are just spoofed.:hmm:
In that way, it's just a tactic, not a cheat.
I agree 100%...

goldorak 06-06-06 08:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurushio
Therefore I retract my apology and stand by my original comments.

When you play multiplayer, before doing something, ask yourself, could this be done in real life? If not...THEN STOP IT! :stare:
Excuse me, but not everyone is versed on real world naval warfare tactics.
I have no knowledge about complicated tma theories, evasive patterns etc.... and short of clicking every sector on the kilo broadband or narrowband sonar which is a real cheat, what I do to escape a torpedo shoudn't be considered as a cheat.
What happens if I launch a passive + active decoy at the same time ?
Do I become a cheater because in real life a captain doesn't do this ? etc....
Lets cut some slack here.
For simplicity we should have a list of agreed actions which are considered cheats.
Same rule for all, as to whether non orthodox tactics count as cheat (without being a real in game cheat) well that's up for debate.

Kurushio 06-06-06 10:32 AM
Then I apologise once again.


...I'm beginning to feel like the UN. :nope:

goldorak 06-06-06 10:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurushio
Then I apologise once again.


...I'm beginning to feel like the UN. :nope:
No one has the right answer because we as a community still don't agree as to what is or isn't considered a cheat.
The exception being of course the really nasty bugs in the game which give you a "show truth" kind of quality such as the narrowband or broadband click bug.
In the end the "solution" will be arbitrary in nature but the real issue here is that we need comon rules as to what is considered acceptable and what is considered cheat.
Otherwise its just complete and utter caos where everyone is crying foul game when its not, players being considered cheaters when they are not etc....
Of course the fact that the different virtual navies have different rules doesn't help the situation.

Kurushio 06-06-06 11:13 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldorak
No one has the right answer because we as a community still don't agree as to what is or isn't considered a cheat.
The exception being of course the really nasty bugs in the game which give you a "show truth" kind of quality such as the narrowband or broadband click bug.
In the end the "solution" will be arbitrary in nature but the real issue here is that we need comon rules as to what is considered acceptable and what is considered cheat.
Otherwise its just complete and utter caos where everyone is crying foul game when its not, players being considered cheaters when they are not etc....
Of course the fact that the different virtual navies have different rules doesn't help the situation.
I understand that. But, the one before was a known cheat.

So I retract my apology. :lol:

Fish 06-06-06 12:28 PM
Deleted.

suBB 06-06-06 05:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurushio
I understand that. But, the one before was a known cheat.
So I retract my apology. :lol:
OK,

Honestly I haven't been following this thread but that's not required to see where this is going(in circles), and where it is not going(proof of evidence)

I've said this once before re: kaptian vs worker and I will say this again, hopefully for the last time.

UNTIL THERE IS CONCRETE EVIDENCE, these accusations carry no weight and should be disregarded.

For the 2nd time around, the community is blatentaly assaulting an innocent person w/o proof. Due to uncertainty and lack of proof, people like Kurushio can't decide where to stand on the issue. If that isn't a sign of lack of evidence then I don't know what is.

Technically it all makes sense: SLMMs are metallic objects, they emit a passive signature and with timing, maneuvers and deployment could very well serve as a decoy.

As goldorak stated some aren't well versed tactically than others.. If someone out-foxed you then it should be respected and learned from, and not criticized.

Instead, apparently without an effort to successfully reproduce the matter on hand, once again workers' integrity is challenged, his/her name is tarnished, his/her credibility is to near complete ****, and without proof.. all of this for no reason whatsoever.

This just isn't about sub sims and whatnot, it's also about the people thay play them.

Bottom line:

Accusers: put your money where your mouth is and provide evidence.

If you can't do that, then drop this issue, close this thread, move on with your lives and leave this man/woman alone.

Fish 06-06-06 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suBB
OK,

Honestly I haven't been following this thread but that's not required to see where this is going(in circles), and where it is not going(proof of evidence)

I've said this once before re: kaptian vs worker and I will say this again, hopefully for the last time.

UNTIL THERE IS CONCRETE EVIDENCE, these accusations carry no weight and should be disregarded.

For the 2nd time around, the community is blatentaly assaulting an innocent person w/o proof. Due to uncertainty and lack of proof, people like Kurushio can't decide where to stand on the issue. If that isn't a sign of lack of evidence then I don't know what is.

Technically it all makes sense: SLMMs are metallic objects, they emit a passive signature and with timing, maneuvers and deployment could very well serve as a decoy.

As goldorak stated some aren't well versed tactically than others.. If someone out-foxed you then it should be respected and learned from, and not criticized.

Instead, apparently without an effort to successfully reproduce the matter on hand, once again workers' integrity is challenged, his/her name is tarnished, his/her credibility is to near complete ****, and without proof.. all of this for no reason whatsoever.

This just isn't about sub sims and whatnot, it's also about the people thay play them.

Bottom line:

Accusers: put your money where your mouth is and provide evidence.

If you can't do that, then drop this issue, close this thread, move on with your lives and leave this man/woman alone.
Time for me to agree with you!

Molon Labe 06-06-06 07:19 PM
As swimsalot as said many times, he's not accusing anyone of cheating. In fact, no one has nailed down exactly what it is that happened here, we're trying to figure that out. In the meantime, we've been advised that a technique is being employed that is either a cheap tactic or an exploit (we've ruled out cheating by doctrine modification).

And the statement that the SLMM was being used as a decoy and that therefore this is OK is patently false. The torpedoes in this replay did not lock onto the SLMM. Please check the facts before going on a tirade.

swimsalot 06-07-06 01:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by suBB
OK,


UNTIL THERE IS CONCRETE EVIDENCE, these accusations carry no weight and should be disregarded.
Instead, apparently without an effort to successfully reproduce the matter on hand, once again workers' integrity is challenged, his/her name is tarnished, his/her credibility is to near complete ****, and without proof.. all of this for no reason whatsoever.

This just
I like playing with ya Subb, so I will assume that you just jumped in and didn't read the thread.
I have stated a few times now that I just wanted to know if this is a bug being exploited or not.
I provided a very clear replay of the mission, did ya watch it?
Since I'm not accusing anyone, I don't need to provide proof, but I would think that anyone watching the replay would think, "Wow, that's kinda wierd!"
So again, for the third time, I found this mission very strange, I provided a copy of the replay, and I'm asking the community if this is a bug or not.
Where is the harm in that?
It's not my fault the same guy has been accused a few times, that's just a coincidence.
Right?

suBB 06-07-06 02:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swimsalot
I like playing with ya Subb, so I will assume that you just jumped in and didn't read the thread.
I have stated a few times now that I just wanted to know if this is a bug being exploited or not.
I provided a very clear replay of the mission, did ya watch it?
Since I'm not accusing anyone, I don't need to provide proof, but I would think that anyone watching the replay would think, "Wow, that's kinda wierd!"
So again, for the third time, I found this mission very strange, I provided a copy of the replay, and I'm asking the community if this is a bug or not.
Where is the harm in that?
It's not my fault the same guy has been accused a few times, that's just a coincidence.
Right?
well as i stated wasn't following this thread, but this thread is identical to an old one before vbulletin update re: kaptian vs worker..

this thread seems to be heading in the same direction as the one before which ended in a 'no contest' in favor of worker.. basically an investigation took place, couldn't prove anything and in the process they **** all over worker and closed the thread w/o apology of any kind.

bottom line is i want to understand whats going on here.. plain and simple.. no i didnt watch your replay.. and it doesnt strike me as odd.. using slmms as decoys makes perfect sense in my mind.. which would go down in the books as tactics and not a cheat or exploit or something wierd going on..

Like LW suggested.. have you asked worker about this? has ANYONE asked him about whats going on here? i wonder what he has to say about all this?

Better yet, if you really want to get to the bottom of this, ask SCS directly.. they are active in this forum as well.

P.S. my map is finished and ready for another round of playtesting, alot has changed since the last time you played it :) .. so ill look for you in gs

Orm 06-07-06 02:27 AM
BTW, where is the accused? Are we too nasty, that he is too afraid to present to us his side of the story? I would like to hear very much his version of this dive.


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