ah but it was mother nature that killed the Germans and won the war (and a little bit of arrogance and ignorance on Hitlers part with respect to tactics)....hell the germans were in spitting distance of Moscow before "worst winter in 300 years" ground the Nazies to a halt...giving the time advantage to the side of the Russians.

Hard to say about the U-boat side of the house...maybe a true blockaide and widespread Wolfpack tactics...who knows...and like someone one else said...thank god they didnt win.

It seems pretty obvious to me: the war was lost when Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, and his declaring war on the U.S. was just extra insurance to make sure he lost. "What ifs" might have dragged out things, but the Allies would have eventually won.

Well, you're right with the 9,7%, but it's about cargos. I think in numbers of ships sunk vs ships built they managed to break it almost even for a month or two.

Also look an alternative in a real sub campaign. The Pacific. I don't have the figures with me, but I remember reading a thesis about the Americans sinking 90% of Japan's merchant fleet. Of course it was a smaller fleet, and it was also not replenished like the UK / US fleet.

If the Germans had more subs that percentage should be a lot more. But totally agree with you that they could not win a war with tonnage war. The Allies would have to find countermeasures and eventually they would.

But if again the Germans threw in the XXI in 1941 for ambush / anti TF duties then... :-j

Again, thank god these things never happened...

I think the whole is much more complex and my guess is that the U-Boot side is only part which by it alone would not have made a big change of the whole outcome. If Hitler would not have isnsisted that all the ME262 should have Dive bombing qualities and If the Heads of the Luftwaffe would not have insisted in not needing al long distance Bomber, and if they would havw taken Malta when they had the chance to keep Rommels back free then many things would look different today.

But that simply doesn't matter - by the time they were close the allies were building up a force to invade europe, not trying to defend Britain, all the Germans could hope to do was delay the invasion.

Smaller fleet, incompetently managed, barely protected and the allies were routinely reading their mail.

ah, the early type XXI! why would Germany introduce a type XXI? it was purely designed as a reaction to the utterly unexpected ability of the allied airpower to devestate the U-boat fleet.

If Germany knows they need the XXI, its already too late for Germany.

Many things have come to late just because they thought they don't need it. If we look at the PQ Convois, if the Germans would had more success in blocking / Sinking the Cargoes then the outcome of the Eastern front would have changed, but they realy did to less to late so the russians could reequipe the whola Armie with new Tanks, Plains and Weapons in such a short time that the Germans had no chance at all. So basicaly the real question is how and with what measurements the germans could disturb all these Transports.

The blocking of England and Russia with U-Boats alone would have required much more of them or a much more active role of the Main Fleet, wich the Germans also didn't want (mainly Hitler who didn't wanted to Risk the Tirpitz). So it reminds me a little of the WW I (i'm rteading the Battle of the Skagerat right now) and there was the same Problem with the Kaiser as they didn't wanted to Risk the Fleet.

The problem with that is that the Germans would lose their surface fleet and once it was gone the entire Brit Home fleet could be moved into productive areas of combat - the Tirpitz was far more effective as a threat than the Bizmark ever was as a warship.

Well, in the Atlantic it was more of that reading... I thought everyone knew that the war was won/lost (depends on p.o.v) at Bletchey Park by Alan Turing & friends... Allied intelligence helped by Hitler's stupid tactical decisions...[/quote]

I know that the Tirpitz was used as a threat for the Home Fleet, but when you think on the PQ 17 Drama where the British did spread the Convoi just because the Tirpitz had left the fjords and then what did the Germans do ? they did make a turn with the Tirpitz and returned without any real contact. My point actualy is that it was a shame that the germans didn't let the Tirpitz, Bismark,Blücher and the other bigies go out on a raid all together. I'm sure a coordinated action as it was planed in 1916 with the help of the U-Boats would have had a big impact in the British fleet and may would have changed a few things.

Yes i know the Germans had a small fleet, but they had (at least at the begining) still a technical advantage over the Brits as the ships where newer.

nice topic....
i don't think hitler did something wrong with his u-boat war.
he made only 3 mistakes.
- he didn't let his air-general continue to bomb the airfields in England, instead he orderd for bombing londen. and because of that, england had space to repair his airfields and build up an airforce.

- i think he was stupid to fight the sovjet union

- he made also a stupid mistake in ignoring his generals

All are good points, in reality if a few minor things had gone differant. WWII would have had a differant ending for both the Atlantic and the pacific. Steed and I had several "What if threads" on the Red devils site. Good reading, and it will make you think. Most of the points discussed we covered in our what if threads.
One of my favorites was Germany building 2 essex class style Aircraft carriers, and how they were used. Below is the url if anyone would like to read them.

http://hometown.aol.co.uk/dominicoba...hunterIII.html

I'd read up on Spring '42, when the U-Boat War essentially turned in favor of the Allies. You're off by at least 6 months.

absolutely about bombing the airfields - we almost lost the war because the air force was on its last legs. The city bombing was a huge relief

Hitler made some huge mistakes in 41 / 42, the biggest being the invasion of Russia

If he had consolodated his position after the fall of France and sought a truce with Britain I wonder whether we would have liberated Europe ?

They did make a few attempts of raidng convoys with surface ships. The first, and most succesful, was the cruise of Scharnhorst and Gneisenau January-March 1941. They sank 20-some ships.

The second was Operation Rheinübung, which we all know how ended. After that, the concept was largely abandoned.

Forget uboats, jets, assault rifles (stg44), etc...

Germany lost WWII because of one thing, THE INVASION OF RUSSIA!

Hitler had an iron-clad non aggression pact with Russia and Stalin had no means of attacking Germany after the great purges. It was absolute folly to attack Russia at that time.

In fact Hitler and Stalin would have probably been great friends for Stalin was no communist. He was just another meglomaniacal dictator like his buddy Adolf!

Hitler was obviously not a student of history because good ol' Napoleon tried the same thing with the same result.

In fact I wish all politians were required to hold doctorates in history. So much of what any nation faces today has been dealt with already in the past.