I think it depends, if history repeats itself then diesel submarines can break havoc to stationary fleets ( cfr the falkland war).
In open sea I don't see the kilo being a threat against us naval forces, but the equation changes dramatically in littoral waters.

Why do you think it isn't a threat in open sea ?

If you cant see the threat it poses to US forces then my god you are nuts.

A kilo in the gulf is more than your worst nightmare, its the nightmare thatr comes true, limited monovering shallow waters reduced speed's perfect for the kilo just to sit there and launch.

Double post

Because of mobility ?
Moreover consider that nuclear submarines acting asw are not constrained by low depth, not optimal sonar conditions etc....
so in open sea us naval forces have an advantage.

Not so in littoral waters, or if the fleet is stationary.

Just look how easily american warships were attacked while in port.

What's wrong with it ?

Well, advantage is a relative term. That all depends on the situation. The kilo is quit, it can move, it has sensors and it has weapons!!! So it's a threat!!!

Don't come across it's way.

Deamon

Please Deamon you don't see Kilo's waging war or conducting operations in the middle of the atlantic or pacific oceans now do you ? :roll:
Kilo is designed to operate near the coast not in the middle of an ocean and it is deadly in that environment.
I never said the kilo wasn't deadly, it is deadly in littoral waters.
Take it to the middle of the ocean and it would have a very hard time going against a surface fleet + asw screening.
Why ? Becase of limited speed, the need to resurface to charge batteries, the limited range, the limited maneuvrability options etc....
All elements that american nuclear submarines don't have.

Now in littoral waters, low depth, poor sonar conditions, enourmous nuclear submarines have low maneuvrability, slow speed (you don't want to cavitate do you ? ) so in this case diesel submarines have the advantage.

I feel like a sardine at a tuna convention posting here :doh: ...so would it be reasonable to assume Iran's Kilos would be used in hit and run tactics in the Straits of Homuz instead of full out naval war against American fleets?

On that thought...wouldn't it just be easier bombing the heck out of Iranian submarine bases, then actually going after the sub itself?

Yeah, Kilo's could make the civilian and military navigation in the strait of ormuz a real nightmare.



You want to start another war with Iran after Iraq ?
Even if I don't agree with Iran's viewpoint on trying to acquire military grade nuclear technology I see nonetheless a basic fact about nukes.
Countries that have nukes (in one form or another) are not attacked by us forces.
Why do you think that North Korea has never been attacked by us forces ?
North Korea poses a much more relevant threat to United States security than Iraq ever did.
And here we are seeing that the us uses preventive strikes only against non nuclear countries.
Something to think about.

I see them waging war in Hell :88)

You learn something from history do ya ?

They will wage war wherever the admiral will send them to. I remember during the cold war, as a bold Foxtrot commander sneaked undetected in attack range of an US Carrier while the president was on board. After that they hunted it for several days but it finaly shaked them of. If i remember right it wasn't in shallow water.

What i say is that everything is possible. While unlikely they will appear near the US coast they still can operate on the other side of the ocean not nessesarily in the middle of the ocean but still in the deep waters.

What makes it unsuitable for blue waters in your opinion ?

They are pretty deadly wherever the environmental situation will favour it, being it being it litoral or blue waters.

Well, yes the limited speed and endurance is the major disadvantage. But that doesn't render it harmless. When the battlegroup will cross it's way it might be in serious trouble when the acoustical situation will favour the kilo.

With its 70 meters is the kilo not that small. Of corse the shallower water would be better. But i see no reason why they should be not dangerous in blue waters.

Deamon

Where did I say I wanted to start a war with Iran? I don't think it's up to me, anyway. :lol: I'm asking about tactics, that's all. Though a virtual war with Iran is a juicy proposition...has anyone made such a scenario as a mission or campaign for DW?

Of course, I was refering to the us.


This is an interesting proposition.
What kind of scenario do you have in mind ? An us naval blocus ?
Iran navy units making havoc in the persian gulf and us navy comes to the rescue ?

This is my take on why the Kilo is considered a littoral/coastal boat and not an ocean/deep water one. First of all, the Kilo has limited range due to it being diesel propelled. So it could simply run out of diesel? You also have to factor in it has to surface every now and then...which is not a good idea in a shooting war, right?
Secondly, your making it do something it wasn;t built to do, i.e. fight in blue water environment against boats which were designed just for this purpose. Surely it wont be as good considering it was designed as a coastal defence boat.

There are people with much more of a valid opinion here but this just seems obvious to me.

I would do something along those lines....or how I would see it. Where Iran would use hit and run tactics on the shipping lanes with the US doing escort and hunt and destroy. Though I've never used the editor before, so I have no idea what can be done.

To be honest with you...I think very similar missions already exist. :yep: Though I'd love a whole campaign sort of thing....

It could run out of diesel yes your quite right but with a 8,000nm range i dont think thats gunna happen much in the gulf whats more the kilo is actualy a medium range attack submarine and was designed for blue water as well as littoral waters, emphasis being on littoral.