Well it's no accident that they're on the same pipeline, eh? :hmm:

I'd be surprised if anyone blames Russia for this one. I mean, why the hell would they cut out gas on their own territory?

Let me tell you about Georgia and Ukraine!

Terroist (criminals, whatever) blow up a pipelines to georgia. Beyond repair. georgia's first response "Nothing else comes to my head, must have been the russians doing it on purpose". Read to what this 30+ year old Saakvashvili is saying. So now, the workers fixing the pipelines have to go into this -20C cold, and start fixing the pipelines (russians) just so georgia doesn't freeze. Yesterday, some petty officier is ordering the gas supply to russian embasy stopped because "those little people are probably responsible for this anyway - I'm sure they'll have other means of getting the power". Meanwhile, Ukraine, who already STOLE quite a lot of gas from supplies to Europe, is deciding to give AID to georgia that's freezing up. Ukraine, that claims to have no gas of its own and is struggling due to colds week ago, is giving RUSSIAN gas away for free to georgia as a type of humanitarian aid. How nice. I don't know, but I believe sh*t like that will lead to a full war at some point if the puppets in Ukraine and Georgia don't stop. Meanwhile, countries like Hungary have to start thinking of getting gas from alternative places, like Afrika. Sure, it's far away and expensive, but at least theres no Ukraine in the middle.

Current Georgia and Ukraine governments are the ones elected on utter unpopularity of an alternative regime. Their ONLY way to consolidate people is to create an outside enemy and blame them for everything, from lack of tangerines on the hillside to the color of milk their cows are giving. This outside enemy is Russia. And there's only ONE country that benefits from this instability - the USA. Because for planning a war on IRAN, USA needs the bases at some point in the caucases. Azerbaidzhan and Georgia sound qutie good. Russia on the other hand is totally isolated. To be honest, I'm am completely stunned that Russia isn't actually changing to direct confrontation with these puppet regimes and doesn't take them out like the US does. For russia, saakashvili is same as Castro for US. I don't see them staying in power much longer, because first and foremost thanks to them their people are now freezing. Georgia freely supports tchechen terrorists in Pankiss canyon where they can rest and get some supplies of humans and weapons. I wouldn't be surprised if Georgia will initiate a war confilict with Russia hoping for bakcing of the west (over Sukhumi) and this can get ulgy fast. But I doubt US will want to start miliatry conflict directly against russia over a georgia. but if anyone has some doubt if US is hostile to russia, wake up. the government of the US has always had the goal of destabilizing russia and never allowing it to be a superpower. This time around russia is riding a strong economy and getting stronger every day, and that worries the hell of US.

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Chill out over the South America dude, I only say it's fascinating to find out what's going on there, before you start qouting me your thesis paper sources.

Yes, see, that's exactly my point. You just haven't got a clue why the gas was cut in ukraine, and don't even bother to question the motives behind BLOWING UP their own gaslines to Georgia (beyond repair, I might add). I'm sorry, but it's so difficult to speak with an opponent who ignores reality. Again, look it: Ukraine was deprived of gas because it DEMANDED to be supplied gas under prices that are 5 times less than those which go to EU. Georgia is just georgia, the president is 'samodur' (look it up in russian, I can't translate, basically a self-induced-idiot but hard to explain it correctly) and that's all.

Russia didn't cut gas - GAZPROM did. Putin's not in charge of it. Gazprom is a business that didnt' want to lose money. Ukraine made it political, UKRAINE. And I believe the next gas crisis will be the end of Yucsenko as a president.

===

Regarding the East West - I'm not reaching back for no reason. The East West division never existed until the break up of Roman empire, and thanks to THE CHURCH, we have what we have. It's all about the myths that the "west" created about the east - an uncivilized, barbaric, pagan. Rings a bell? Guess what, the east was so much more developed during the Roman times, that it's given credit to. For one, its army was not a bunch of bare arse legioneers, but more like covered in armour cataphracts.

history has been rewritten many many times. To happy times.

I'm not saying russia is all saint. Russia's life under tatar mongol invasion IMO destroyed so much of it. Not only the economy, but the whole culture that existed before it. Ever since the 300 year invasion, russia took over and intergrated so much of barbaric (truly) mongols. pretty much all of our swear language now is derived from tatar mongol. It's very barking like, very offensive. Story goes the first time mongols 'visited' russia and fought the 'varjags' (vikings basically) that were enjoying ruling status in the Russ, there was a fight. A big fight, where the russians lost. So they surrendered. They assumed as always, they'd be allowed to go back as noblemen, and so on. But now - the tatars took all of them, put them on the ground, and DANCED on them for hours celebrating their win. Obviously they all died. So all of a sudden a very civilized nation was turned on its head by a very brutal mongol invader. With time, russians took over so much of their brash, brutal ways that they became a part of us forever (unfortunately). Things, such as lack of any respect by the rulers towards its people. That's why in Russia for centuries, the government never felt responsible before its own people. That sh*t is centuries old, not just communism induced. That's how we are - our own unique civilization developed in that manner. The biggest tragedy was this mongol invasion that was nothing like any other invasion. It was many generations long, the became part of russia. Later one, when Russia changed this domination (Ivan the Terrible), the mongol elite horse archers were used in the russian army as key task forces. they were integrated basicaly, and now we don't have any sort of hatred to mongols as Estonia has towards germans and russians for example.

The east/west division is mainly thanks to the church though, and indeed it goes a looong way back.

This conclusion is doubtful at all. In long history that was the Russia who had always looking for outside enemy. Who gives Your right to call puppets democratic goverment of Ukraina.
What with Romania then ? Gasprom increased the prices of gas about 400%. This is violation of long term contract which is valid for next 10 years (in Romania case). The point is that Russia has no money to pay for transit of gas true Ukrainian, Romanian, Polish territories. Thats why Russia pays this in gas. By increasing prices Russian goverment want to increase the income from sell and dicrease transit charges. Using Gasprom company as political tool, and fuel supplies as politcal argument. Some days ago when conflict between Russia and Ukraine came on top, there were comments in british BBC TV. That Russia appears as unflexible and unreliable businnes partner. Let me tell You that Eastern European countries have enough of Russian superpower politics. All of them from Ukrainian to Hungarian ex USSR and Warsaw Pact countires wish to be free finally (except White Russia with its puppet Lukaschenko). Thats why they joined EU. To be partners in interests, to be part of Europe and part of free world. What todays Russia disagree is that superpower position of this country is dicreasing with every year. The ambitions to be a superpower are stronger than respect for independency of other countries, is stronger than only one right thinking of building up great country in democratic way, and partnership with other countries. What is wrong in aid help to Georgia ? Nothing i would say. The same like aid for Russia which is strugling with money. But there is something wrong if economic situation of Russian citizens is very bad, and goverment put lot of money in new weapons projects. Russian goverment is going back to USSR time with dream of satelite countries which will work for Russia. The time is to wake up not for rest of the world. The time to wake up is for Russia and goverment of this country.
Personally i like Russians so much. I have met many of them, they are very friendly people. But politics and propaganda of Russian goverment is poisoning they minds. No one is Russian State and independece and freedom enemy. No one. The only one who is looking for outside enemy is Russian goverment.

Yes 941, I get your point now, after all the Eastern history is part of my own (An ancestor was a Greek merchant in Cesarea, now Kayseri) and I know full well the differences between East and West Rome, and how the East was more advanced for centuries. I just made the point there are similarities in how some small countries in different parts of the world see Russia and the USA.

Chilled. Like you said it yourself, I believe there are many fascinating topics you'll never hear about, how could it be any different, if Hugo Chavez steals all the space reserved for SA anyway? How individualistic of him to monopolize all the space for himself!

I'll gladly reply to your post G. in full, but a bit later. One thing that struck me now is you believe honestly that government in Ukraina is democratic. Which is a mojore mistake. It's just another corrupt coalition (that fell apart btw) that's taken over the old one. Son of Yuchenko is driving around in cars that cost half a million euro, use cellphones that cost 40000 dollars, and live in very shady apartments registered to unknown parties. When confronted with all of this (how is it possible for such poor nation to have such well funded life of sons president) the answer was typical 'let's focus on real issues, he's a good boy, that's all' blah. :) Reality? Yushenko is as corrupt as anyone else over there, he's a part of former government that he replaced, what more do you want to know! If you think he's some white sheep - wake up mate. He's just got 1 way to stay in power - blame russia for everything, because it drives SOME part of his country. But not the western part that is totally pro russian... You have to realize, that Russian and Ukranian people's closeness is not a made up thing. It's a fact - our nations are very closely related so for Russia to be having an interest in Ukraine is perfectly natural, and not so many oppose this as CNN would have you belief. My grandmother is ukranian for example. It's the Ukranian governent that's trying to present this as national issue. Matter of the fact it that Yushenko is a puppet of the US and that's the full stop.

Type241 We are very far apart in our wiews, but this bit you wrote got my attention. The realison of this legacy in Russia AND learning from it, could be the key to peace and prosperity for the Russian people and bases for good relations with its neigbours.

And the Spy Rock :huh:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4658462.stm

What Next :rotfl:

I'll subscribe to all that. :yep:

***

I'm tempted to doubt the severity of the Mongol thing somewhat, I suppose, although I myself won't deny having some Tartar roots (at the same time, most of my ethnic Russian background is from the Novgorod area, untouched by that invasion). There are surely other aspects to the national tragedy of Russia's character, and I don't think it's fair to blame outside invaders for it exclusively. It's infinitely more complex than that.

Otherwise, the only thing that keeps irritating me is the attitude of "Russia=USSR", especially in relation to the dealings with former Soviet republics. Please, Ukraine. Your Bolscheviks were in it too all along. You're not any less guilty than Russia is of the injustices inflicted by the totalitarian rule, and if we do go by that logic - then Georgia may be the most guilty of all! (and what are they complaining of?)

The bottom line is that this energy thing is an issue of dealing with the still-Soviet infrastructure. And that's a legacy of the USSR which will continue to cause problems because there is no right answer - blaming any of the 'successor states' is not the right answer. The only answer I can come up with is "cooperate or get your own". Russia owes Ukraine no more favours than Georgia or Azerbaijan owe Ukraine.

Well....


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"See Chief? It's working fine!"

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"We're supposed to be sitting, Max!"

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"We are sitting, Chief."

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"I'm telling you Max, this isn't a good idea!"

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"You see? Stuck!!"

LMAO...ahh the old days of Kaos and Control... lol. :)

:nope: :nope: NOT THE CONE OF SILENCE! :nope: :nope:

Nice one Iceman :rotfl:

It's the Cold War Part 2 starring a lot of people who are very boring :zzz: :zzz:

Just for You my friend. We as people, grey parts in our goverments games are much much closer. It is because we are slavic nations. We have the same roots. But politics puts a lot of poison and i disagree with it.
My father family comes from Russia, my mathers family comes from east of Polish Kingdom far far from todays border. My grand garnd mother have been workin in palace in Petersburg when right owners used to occupy this building. Times are changing and today You can call Ukrainian president corrupted man, but he is still chosen one. If he fail then no one else tahn Ukrainian people will pay the price. Same is with You Russians. Same with other nations. Thats what democracy is. I am glad You answered but still avoided primary arguments. ;)