Actually I prefer to play with manual TMA for both players, but if it is an issue of whether the game will happen or not, I like to have the option not to use it, because I would rather play the game with me using manual TMA and the others using aTMA than be forced to use aTMA or not play the game.

I enjoy the game more that way. aTMA is just not fun for me, I'd rather play without it for myself.

I don't really mind if others use it, because they are more predictable in a way when they are using it, and I think I can handle that as a tactical challenge. :arrgh!:

Yeh. if someone isusing aTMA they wont get updates as much as the person doing the manual TMA so it can be an advantage if you are good at it. Problem i have is that if you have to do any sort of tuen then the next 2 or 3 baring lines are messed up. Also it near imposable to get demon on a sub. I would like to see the broadband being made so it can detect subs maybe at 80% the range of NB so tou have a much better chance to get DEmon and so speed on a sub. Without speed and only baring lines from a TA there is just to many combinations for a TMA solution. 'Usually you would change speed and course doing maybe 3 legs like this. but with the baring lines being corupted by turns it not a good idea. Best way in DW it to keep course and speed which also means it eisier for the enemy to do TMA on you. Any one else for better BB detection?. NB has to still be the main way of detecting subs but i think BB could be better.

I find it handy to use passive signal strength and knowledge of the various platforms to provide the speed and range estimate, or at least give me a good guess.

yeh that can help but it not god enough for my meger TMA skills :-j

here is the setting I use from first days of MP games =>

http://okof4.free.fr/images/DW/DWoptions1.jpg

http://okof4.free.fr/images/DW/DWoptions2.jpg

http://okof4.free.fr/images/DW/DWoptions3.jpg

change from your settings, Furia =>

screen 1 :

1) Aircraft quick launch

As some of my mission have helo aboard and this helo is planned to take off after a certain amount of time, I need to kill the quick launch option.

2) Show link data

of course, here, you need to allow ANY PLAYER to switch on or off the datalink.
You shouldn't force them to see the datalink, if they want to declutter the NAV screen, they couldn't with your setting.
No reason at all to force the datalink here.

3) show dead platforms

I don't see here why you must see dead platforms as soon as they are destroyed.
It's your job to know there is one here and to avoid to engage it, to distinguish, on active, living and dead contacts.
Seeing dead platform is a bit a cheat, and give away some interesting work on the way you built your situationnal awarness, and the way you manage the target queue.
One thing I regret in DW is the fact you could see what you have sunk on the mission status, as soon as you sink it.
But that's not a reason to see on the map every sunk platform.

4) sub active autocrew

This is one really important AC for subs.
On a real submarine, there is always an operator here (as on radar), so there is no reason you coudn't have active intercept LOBS automatically. It's certainly the best thing to avoid torpedoes locked on you, and its a real need.
You shouldn't have to go to intercept screen just to clic on an active reception each time there is one.
And final reason : you need this for TMA on active intercept.
So there is lots of reasons to have this AC, the most important AC for subs (much more important than radar AC of course).

screen 2 :

1) use surface acoustic AC

well ... it's a brain work here, and as all station with brain work, you need to set this to manual.
You just can't let AI work on buoys on MP games, it's your job.

2)use TA auto crew

Here also, it's a brain work
so here also, you must do it yourself if you want to play on the most realistic (and interesting) settings.

3) use surface TMA AC

The aTMA on FFG is an enormous cheat, as the one for subs.
Not only he is able to find you solution in some seconds, but also he could make solutions FAR out of the sheet of paper .........
Anyway, as long as TMA LOBs on EW and on TA will be only 5 miles long, this will be impossible to work on TMA with it.
But that's not a reason to use something FAR more efficient than the real thing.
I personnally only use the TMA on FFG to merge contact (sometimes also to make a solution on active sonar contact), waiting for SCS to solve the 5 miles long LOBs for FFG TMA ...........


4) Use Surface CM autocrew

Here also, you must have someone able to IMMEDIATLY launch CM if a missile is detected : as there is NO warning at all on ESM missile inbound ... (don't ask me why ...) this AC allow you to be warned there is a missile launched at you.
5) use helo senso acoustic AC
Here also you just can't let the AI work on buoys for you.
Or why not also using AC on sub sonars ? there is no difference at all.
But on realistic settings, you must work yourself on buoys as on subs sonars of course.
Buoys are also really easier than sub sonars to use.

screen 3 :

1) Use air acoustic AC

Here, as for helo, you should kill the AC and work yourself on buoys of course !
Using this AC just kill the more interesting thing for aircrafts !
If they don't have to work on buoys to find contact, what is the purpose of the simulation ? just making some circle in the air while letting AI working ? :roll:

So, here is all my changes compared to your settings.
I use them from the first MP games, when i worked on this matter (MP options) and even discuss a lot my choice on beat board (it's certainly quite old now for you to remember ...), and I can assure this give the best games I played.
So, after so many MP games with these settings, I could say there is no best settings than these ones to have interesting and realistic games.

? you must be joking ?
You will have a solution MUCH SOONER IN ANY CASE with aTMA than with manual work.
With manual TMA you need at least 7 LOBs to start to work on it (if you track contact on single array) when the aTMA is able to find you a magically accurate solution after 2 LOBs only.
That's why you can't use manual TMA on games where others use cheating aTMA, because they will know exactly where you are when you will just have a bearing for them.
In everyway, aTMA is bad =>
1) cheating as it give you very accurate solutions when this is just impossible to do (because aTMA use show truth and not calculation on LOBs)
2) killing the interest of the game, because you rely on a cheat to built your situationnal awarness .......
So there is no hesitation, no choice, no evaluation of the dangerous zone => you just have to follow the cheat.
very poor games ... no fun at all, just pressing buttons ...




So you want something unrealistic ...
I disagree with you on this point, I prefer a LOT a real DEMON with real problems, as the one designed.
It's a simulation JoGary, not an arcade game where you set everything for gameplay purpose.
It's hard to get DEMON in DW because it's hard in a real sub.

Hello OKO. I was looking forward to learn about your options since it was you basically who made me think about this post and what would be the most realistic settings.,
Of course as always I respect your oppinion and the reasosn you state for it.
However despite your very well reasoned post you have not answered the thread post.
I have asked about the most REALISTIC settings for this game to make it the most realistic, not the more difficult or cumbersome settings.
Probably being a dedicated FFG player I feel more the need to find out this. On the old times when I was playing 688i with Seawolves, Of course it was ALL with no Autocrew. Usually 1vs1 and with similar capabilities sensors. It was OK and it is still OK because what really mattered was the manual work there.
With DW and specially with the FFG things a bit different.
Most scenarios there is not just 1 FFG vs 1 sub but multiple threats, including air and surface. As you have noticed the FFG uses ALL the function buttons to have access to its stations, actually the FFG has about 12 stations and a total of 24 different screens for different functions by far most than any other DW platfform. A FFG driver not only gathers data from it s own sonar, buoys and towed array but also from the helo buoys. Besides this he has to have a full awareness about what happen around.
My point on this thread is not I want things easy :ping: but I want them realistic.
You can be sure that always before shooting a weapon or enev confirming a contact on the link, I MANUALLY work on that solution. ALWAYS, however when I letf the station I want a basic TMA crew to keep feeding data.
For me FFG A Crew is made of the very simple sailors who will NEVER make me win a combat with just their help.
I have heard repeatedely about A TMA giving information based on TRUE info but this is just not true and so so simple to verify on the FFG (I did) just do it in a map with snekay and maneuvering subs and use true of and ON. It is funny but they never even get close. A TMA only works good with targets that give a strong signal (A TMA does not auto merge data quite well) and in contacts that keep stable course and speed for 10 minutes. NOt many subs offer such opportunities.
Anyway I have to confess on the FFG for me Auto TMA is totally unreliable and I NEVER fire a torp on a solution just generated solely by AUto TMA.
So since A Crew is really not good performing I am forced to work manually on the sonar station, procerss the buoys data, filter the contacts, verify the Towed Array speed, resolve ambiguity contacts, plan the helo route, select wich buoys, manually set the torpedos settings (which is by far more complex than in the Sub belive me).
For me as for you the fun and exciting part of the sim is manually control this. The problem and the realistic concept comes that a FFG Player can simply not win a match on a high threat enviroment against severl human payers if he has not some support from the Autocrew on the stations he is no manually controlling at that time. I considered myself a capable FFG driver and I can assure you this.
Main reason of this is that player awareness during combat has to be divided on so many different stations (did I mentioned the FFG has 24? )that he cannot simply do everything fast enough as a sub driver can do (I know because I have driven subs since many years, specially the 688i) and he is also missing very important data he gets no warning at all.
Let me place you an example. Imagine I have a submarine contact on my buoys and on my TA. so I have to manually determine wich kind of contact with filters, its deep with different buoys and the deep of the TA and determine it speed with the demon. I have to TMA it. After that I have to manually set my torpedo solution on this and fire. Even for a experienced player the minimum time to do this with precission is 7-to 10 minutes totally focusing of 3 screens only.
For a sub player this is also 3 screens (Sonar, TMA and Fire control) but he basically have nothing else to watch.
So far so good, but the problem is that while I am doing this for 10 minutes nobody is watching the rest of the 9 (with a total of 24 substations ;) )stations, some of them critical. I could have a frecuency alert, a new buoy activity, a new air contact on the radar approaching me at 500knts, even a kamikaze ship charging against me, and I would be simply not even aware of this. And this is what I do call NOT REALISTIC
On my oppinion at least the FFG needs some Acrew to keep performing tasks while you are not on the station. NOt for doing the work for me, not for giving me fire solution but for keep track of information while I am doing other stuff.
However I propose you a practical test. You drive an FFG as captain NO AUTOCREW (Well to demonstrate this even better I allow you to use the super efficient Auto TMA :P ) against me for instance on a 688i (NO AUTOCREW of course) and with some possible enemy air asset and maybe some little surface threat. You do all manually and if you survive more than 20 minutes (provided the map is weapons and detection range) I promise I will change all my thinking about this and nominate you more realistic player on the subsim comunity :arrgh!:
Deal?

Yes Auto-TMA is super accurate but it isn't cheating.

But then OKO you know my opinion.

at least 7 LOBS on a single array....

You can do manual TMA with less than that if you want.

FFG TMA is surely not super accurate and those of you on the Betatesting know better.
Human manned TMA is ALWAYS more accurate than A TMA.

For FFG A TMA draw a solid solution you need a non maneuvering target, making a good speed thus a solid contact and stable for some minutes. Human manned submarines just simply do not offer all this.
Even with surface targets the TMA takes many times to give you a solid solution and you can see the radar contact you have is not even near the TMA solution and we all know that tracking a surface contact is much easier than a sneaky sub

:lol: We seem to be heading up to a duel here - a challenge has been offered and a glove swiped.:roll:
I am not anxious to be anyones second - an overated and highly dangerous occupation.
Many times the duelists trembling hand results in stray shots causing 'friendly fire' carnage.:dead:

However do we have two mutualy exclusive positions ? The FFG drivers work load mandates ATMA
and no self-respecting bubblehead would be seen dead using ATMA ?:o

Am I missing something here as I would be happy to allow the host to place his little cross in the right-hand
'Use Surface TMA Autocrew' box ? :yep: :hmm:

Well this is not really a Duel. I respect OKO as sub driver and I will never offer such statement of killing him in 20 minutes on a sub vs sub.
My proposal is just a demonstration that the FFG is not as "easy" to control than the sub and that with even A TMA you have no advantage above any human manned sub.
So no duel just a practical demonstration :ping:

:) OK Furia I did start my post with a ........ :lol: (better :-j )

My point is that we have a dichotomy and the message has already gone home........ I hope. :ping:

Surely there is a simple setting solution, as above ? :hmm:

The players agree on a setting with which both can live before the game. If one of them needs the aTMA for subs (for example) and the other wont allow it, then either they agree on some sort of compromise or simply can't play with each other.

Whatever solution is brought forward here is purely subjective and dependant upon a lot of factors, like playing style, enviroment (a Virtual Fleet for example) and so on. It would be nice to agree on some sort of setting, but I don't think thatll happen.

And I'm not really in favour of the (polite) name calling over some game feature. Yep, the aTMA "cheats" (maybe ...) and for some people this reduces their enjoyment of the game so they turn it off, but please don't force your beliefs on others. Those discussions somehow remind me of religious discussions, done with the same intensity. How bout backing off, saying ... those are the settings I prefer, if you like them - use them. And if not then do your own thing. Yep I have a post somewhere up in this thread and I explicitly stated what I prefer and why but I won't force them on somebody else. I think the only thing we all agree on is the fact that truth should be off in a MP game, everything else is up for keeps IMHO.

Cheers
OS

:D Agreed OS - its no big deal -
''I would be happy to allow the host to place his little cross in the right-hand 'Use Surface TMA Autocrew' box''

The downer is spending ''15 minutes'' on it - but it happens. ;)

I think the BEST GAME comes from matches in which sub drivers are doing Manual TMA and FFG drivers are using Auto TMA.

So that is my preference to play, but like I said, if you use aTMA, at least give me the option not to and let me plot manually.