The only reason that I have not posted a patch update to this point is that many of the fixes are still up in the air and need to be tested for play balancing... If you would like a minimal list of sorts, then here:

• - The STADIMETERS on all 4 subs now remember which platform was selected last time when a player re-enters the screen. Also, the list is circular.
  
  - Kilo BB sound cheat was removed.
  
  - Kilo speed bug (where speed increased to 18 knots when diving and ordering ahead 2/3) was fixed.
  
  - The speed lock buttons were changed to behave like Sub Command. That means that they stay locked when autocrew TMA is on or off AND the player can still enter speed, course, bearing and range values even with the locks on. Autocrew was taught to honor the locks as he generates a solution.
  
  - The way that the sub TMA's handle manual solutions was improved AND manual solutions can now be handled for the first time by the FFG TMA.
  
  - A bug where the acoustic displays stopped displaying data from either helo's buoys when the sync'd helo was changed was fixed.
  
  - Corrected a test in the sensor logic that could have failed incorrectly. (This was incidental and not related to any known bug)
  
  
  - Corrected the speed vs OS noise bug in the submarines ("Sound vs. Speed" fix).
  
  - Corrected a problem with the FFG Towed Array Save Game function which caused loaded gamaes to ignore changes in the contact list.
  
  - Fixed a problem where the FFG's AI helo had its loadout restored when a saved game was loaded. Also, fixed the buoy waypoint list so that a loaded game gives correct waypoint count.

Now is that all of the fixes? No, absolutely not... There are many changes to the code that have to be verified and tested and will then be thoroughly tested by the BETA testers before ANYTHING is released.

So before you exclaim that your most disliked bug is missing from that list (my top ones are the "Screen Flicker" and the "Music Stutter" bugs, personally), please give us the benefit of the doubt to continue to work and potentially secure some fuding from our new publishing partner.

- Jamie

at least we got something

I'll try to respond to everyone's comments above...

Perhaps I mispoke, all I ask from the community (as I always have) is to remain positive... You are certainly entitled to hate SA, or to boycott the rest of our titles, but in the end how will that help your cause? My point was that the new customers who are thinking about taking a chance on the retail version of DW will come into this EXCELLENT community and immediately sense an air of negativity and choose not to purchase the game. Why? Is that what the community as a whole wants, For customers not to purchase a game like to DW? If that is what you want, then there's no point in you reading the rest... Just move on to the next post.

Now, many you are unhappy with DW as it is in v1.01 and you have voiced these concerns. I've PERSONALLY taken note of all of them and if it is possible we will address them as we can. Since everyone else is being honest in this thread, but I have ALWAYS taken the path of professionalism in the past - perhaps it's my turn to say what I think for a change... won't this be exciting! :o

In response to Skybird, I am not taking for granted the intelligence of this community. As a matter of fact, it is without a doubt one of the most intelligent communities I've had the pleasure to participate in... you guys miss absolutely NOTHING (you are as perceptive a bunch as anyone out there)! There is no doubt of that.

However, one concept that some of you refuse to grasp is that we're in the business of making games, and simulation games are not selling well... by any measure. We are trying our VERY best to maximize our earnings on an investment that will most likely never be recouped. That's the harsh business reality that I have to deal with everyday. There's the potential that I (or other members on the team) will not be around for our 5th game because of DW... That's just business... If we're going to be honest, then I should be allowed that privilege, should I not?

So, we are trying to be intelligent about how we go about the patching process to keep costs down, to work diligently on our time, and to make the game the best that we can with the resource we have available to us (i.e. very little). To respond to Boomer, of course it's not YOUR FAULT that the game has issues, I never said that! There just comes a time where the expense of correcting every issue in a simulation as complex as DW is entirely cost prohibitive. Everyone has a job, everyone has to make difficult decisions in their job as painful as they be... We do too.

If you enjoy our games and want to support us through these difficult times, then we would greatly appreciate that support. However, I would never ask you to not voice your opinion in these forums... and so if you are upset about DW, or perhaps you truly hate the decisions that SA has made following the release of DW then you are certainly encouraged to voice that distaste.

I just don't understand why there is such disgust with me and my company. We worked very hard to release a game which many consider to be a leap-forward in the simulation space and furthers the concept of combined-arms ASW warfare... But that isn't worth your time and money? How about your support, it doesn't deserve that?

As we worked on this game (in 2003 and 2004) the climate of the simulation space and PC gaming in general changed DRASTICALLY. So we were faced with decisions:

• - Are we to cancel the game given that the potential sales forecast would not accomodate the expended costs?
  - Are we to charge a huge amount of money to capitilize off of the hardcore simulation crowd (many FAR LESSER games than DW go for $80-$100 or more)?
  - If we do release it, should we cut costs by not releasing a full printed manual?

We didn't do ANY of those things. We charged a reasonable price of $45 for the basic version (equivalent to SC) and $55 to have a printed manual.

Yet when I frequent Subsim these days (when I can, I'm trying my best to help work with our team and to keep us moving and in business) I have a sense that we are being faulted for releasing the product at all... Why are we being ridiculed for this decision?

The point I was trying to make in my previous post is that the vocal minority of people who have purchased DW is what the new buyer sees in this forum (we did sell thousands of copies after all, yet I don't see more than a couple dozen people post in here regularly). You guys are DW's first impression, so to speak. You are free to do with that power, whatever you choose. But I'd ask that you instead focus on the FUN parts of DW and to help those new to the simulation learn how much fun DW can be for them as well (with time, and some hard work)...

Sure, I'm defending SA and I'm defending DW... I think we made a superior product that is worth the price we asked for it. There are things I can do in this game that I cannot do in any other simulation, and I'm very proud of it (as are "many" of the BETA testers too, I think - they did excellent work).

As we move into this new stage of DW's life, I'd hope that you would all be as optimistic about DW's future as I am... We've worked TOO HARD on this project for it not to continue, despite what you may think. :cry:

Don't worry Jamie.
In my eyes DW is a much more superiour product over sh3.
It's worth every penny and it's great pleasure to play it.
The loading times are short so i can play it even if i have ten minutes left before i go to my work. :up:

'He went like one that hath been stunned,
And is of a sense forlorn:
A sadder and a wiser man,
He rose the morrow morn.'

The Rime of the Ancient Mariner.

'That willing suspension of disbelief for the moment,
which constitutes poetic faith.'

Samuel Taylor Coleridge.

No need to be sadder, Bellman (although wiser is always good).

Please just bear with us and even "root for us" in this endeavour as it will have a great bearing on our future. With your support we certainly have a good chance, I feel.

Thank you for the poetic faith (I think? I was a Computer Science major, so English Lit. was not my best subject... :cool:)

You have my wholehearted support Jamie.

Thanks for responding - on a bad day !!

I always say - 'Americans deliver'

I know you will ! :up:

Thanks Jamie! :D Good to hear from you.

I am extatic at the Kilo being looked at! Great news! :up: :rock:

DW was definitely ready to be released. It really is a leap forward in sea-going sims.

Now... T-72 Balkans on Fire... ugh... that was a game that died on the freakin' table. You guys want to talk about bugs and low support!

If the patch takes a while then so be it...

Jamie I’m a dev on several freeware mods and add-ons so I know just how you’re feeling. Everyone wants an update; a screen shot or the damn finished project and all this time your trying to meet your deadline. Just because everyone is so negative don’t forget there are lots of people here who support you and understand what it takes to make a releasable product that will satisfy the masses not to mention yourselves (who can be the harshest critics at times). A day, a month, a year, I know V1.02 will be out. :yep:

I understand your points, Jamie, and take the initial statement of yours that started the angry replies as an unfortunate mishappening then. ;)

You referred to potential customers coming here and beeing scared away. Well, I am not deep enough in DW after just some days to judge if that would be justified, and in the other thread ten days ago or so (before it became personal) I did not critizise the marketing and business option that you guys have choosen - I described just the results and tried some answers why DW is not as well-accepted despite beeing known to far more gamers than you seem to think. IT IS a well-known title, my impression is, it just happens not to fit the taste of the masses, no matter what kind of marketing you choosed. In this thread here me and some others got a bit angry not because of that, but because of the long waiting for the fixes to some issues that in recent months have been described again and again, that had been listed again in recent days, and that to some degree I have witnessed myself now, and after half a year are still there. This simply should not be, what would you say if we have taken your game - and after half a year still owe you let'S say ten dollars of the price you demand? And some of us start to have fears that it might become a long wait like it was back then in 2002, with SC108. I cannot - by all fairness - wholeheartly recommend a game any longer (and I did quite some marketing in your favour, believe me, when talking with friends, I described their reason not to buy in the other thread), if the customer support in terms of fixing remaining issues is of that kind that relations with customers are stretched to their limits, time-wise. You already have lost some of the die-hards here, others - like me - are (or were :) ) hesitant to buy for exactly and no other reason than right this: support in term of ultralong patching times. Call it your way of business-doing or marketing or whatever, but realize that it causes consequences. DW is already fighting against a lacking interest of the wide audience. It is also struggling because many people remember the long timetables in sonalysts patch-deliveries. This I do not mean to rant, this i point out as a simple objective observation.

You ran 98 meters, now zip down the remaining 2 meters to finish the race instead of picnic on the racetrack. I often got asked "Does it have issues?" and if I did not wanted to lie to freinds or buddies I had to answer: "Yes, by far not as many as F4 on release, but some that people take notice of." If I could have answered that question with a simple: "No, nothing worth to be mentioned", than maybe it would have won you this or that additional customer.

Probably, but a year is completely unacceptable. Free modding projects may last that time, projects by the community - but not patching by the producer of a product people are expected to spend money for.

I still believe in DW and hope it will become much better after one or two more patches. It is also great for modding IF all the game engine issues will be fixed. I'm staying positive and think it's a great game - only IMO not entirely finished yet. But it will be, right ? So everything would be fine :-) All I wanted to ask was some feedback about what bugs are acknowledged and in the queue and what are already fixed (and you presented a list of them, great!). Then I would know for example that by working out this or other bug and presenting detailed description of the problem, sometimes even with suggestions how to fix it (if possible i.e. not game engine bug) then it would help you to work on and fix those issues. To not spend my time on bugs that you have already fixed. For example, do you see the problem with doctrine language interpreter, some commands not working in Init phase or at all ? Or should I work some more and send you more detailed description with examples of working and not working command combinations ? But then again, after this feedback would be needed - was the description good, have been problem recreated now ?
Would be very helpful to have somwhere a list of acknowledged bugs, that you confirm you know of. There could be second list of bugs already fixed (something you already posted, but it will be changing with time). Of course there is a patch suggestions thread, but we have no idea how many of things posted there you have actually classified as a bug, and bug which need fixing and will be worked on.
I report a bug, but later HAVE NO IDEA if it had been recreated, if it had been classified as a bug or maybe not, and in fact - if this have been read at all !! At least few words - yes, we have read this and see the problem. I hope it's not too much. Best would be list of acknowledged, worked on bugs and already fixed bugs, but if not then at least few words of comment and feedback to people that reported a bug. That's all I ask for. I'm sorry if I repeated myself, edited this post few times before sending....

Instead of having fun with a GREAT game, some can only whine about "bugs". There game is dust heaping.
It is therefore interesting to see how multiplayers cope with the kilo sonar bug. They don't whine but find ways to fully explore the game, and have fun. And fun they have! :up:


We (the Seawolves) still have 688(I) players, old and and new ones, but SC is dead from the day we had DW as a game for multiplay.
That, in my opinion speaks for it selfs.

I have to agree. Fundamentally, I think that DW works, and that it's a great game.

We have to face the reality that we just have to get on with it. Sonalysts have just joined the ranks of every niche software developer out there, in the realisation that they will not get a pat on the back from any forum communities. That's a sad reality.

It's also a sad reality that we have to get behind SA, or quit - this is the only way things will be improved, at the final count, in it's finished state, it is value for money.

Bought the game yet, Skybird?