:) Mmmm very interesting turn of phrase. :lol:

Personaly spending a lot of time learning DW mission design at present.:up:

The New Forest is nice and cool and shady at this time of year. ;)
Quite soothes the fevered brow.:-j

James,

Any more bright comments...? :88)

If DW is so popular, then I wonder why Jamie indicated some weeks ago that sales numbers are lagging behind hopes, and why not only a few players are hesitent to buy, or have said in the past they shelved it until a patch comes out, I remember several names in this forum having said so. DW is popular for a majority of people who bought it (fine, but: what a surprise). If as many people bought DW as have bought SC back then is another question. And that SC was not a "bed of roses" I certainly have a good reason to remember all to well. ;) Recent comments here indicated that several people remember that as well. maybe you should read more carefully before attcking people for something that noone said, or indicated.

And what had the missions of DW to do with it...?

Cool down. Tone here was pretty constructive and sober, until you fired your comment. Maybe you should "change your own record" before demanding this from others. Or do you have "nothing better to do" yourself...?

No. I'm quite happy to leave you criticising Sonalysts for producing a game you've not even bought, as experience suggests it's highly unlikely anything I write will change your mind.

Ta

James

Aha. And with regard to DW, what was it that I critizised SA with? Can't remember right now. I made assumptions, basing on obervations of feedback, and status. Both lead me to my decision to wait. Critizism is something different.

As I said on page 1, I am completely at peace with SA, for I have not lost any money yet. I take note of the feedback pro >>AND<< contra, I feel I am not yet convinced, and I feel my interest is slowly fading, due to the months going by. Period.

Make them install a guaranteed money-back-policy if one is not satifsied with the produt's shape, and I will buy immediately ;) You know as well as I do, that they wouldn't do that, so what is it with your remark that I even have not bought it? :lol:

There's a saying I live by: "don't let a person who thinks something I value is worthless have anything to do with changing it." ;)

I believe he refers to the widely-held belief that a person has no business commenting on something with which he/she has no experience, and in this we both refer to Dangerous Waters. It's a bit like complaining about the government when one has not gone to the voting both. Or, put another way: Did you buy the groceries? No? Did you cook the meal? No? Then don't complain about dinner.

Which has what relevance, exactly, to Dangerous Waters?

What game producer would do that??

Furthermore, don't act like the innocent by saying you're not bashing Sonalysts or a sim you've not yet bought, or even a sim that the community pulled together and turned into our own like SC. You only come here to carp when someone has something negative to say about SC, DW or Sonalysts - as evidenced by the fact you haven't bought it, because if you had, you'd not see so much to complain about. Wait, I take that back - you'd complain about a sunset.

TG

:lol: I cant remember the source but some research was done which showed that when women conversed
they gossiped and when men conversed they bellyache.
Well that was money wasted to confirm the bl***y obvious. :arrgh!:

We grumble . we complain. Here we call it the Victor Meldrew syndrome . Curmudgeonly ''mature'' guy in comedy series. :damn:
Age a factor ? :yep:

I love MP but currently cant play (router) - I am sure DW MP is a blast - cant wait. But SP is another thing and
force meseur SC/SCX is only a bolt hole temporarily. :lol: While I polish up new Ak skills (?)

I am sorry if James was upset - we do resent any implied attack against the things we cherish.
He is enthusiastic and committed to DW MP and I am sure soon many more of us will join him. :sunny:

Ask him. He referred to SC's developement/patching not beeing a bed of roses, as if anyone had said something different. Noone had.

You guys are really trying hard to make what I said look queer. But one can see that often: that a player likes something, and now he is pressing hard that others have to like it, too, and see it his way.

Yes, once a month, or longer, I pop up here and comment, but I scan the forum constantly. It's just that I do not engage in debates about this or that detail of gameplay. I do not have that game, currently, so hwo should I go into it'S details? (It's not details that irritate me when still not buying.) My point of interest is the future remedy to the things that were reported here in this forum as things worth to be fixed. This my interest is understandable, for if they get fixed, I will rethink my position on buying.

I HAVE NOT BASHED SA in this thread, hammer this into your fanatical little anti-Skybird-head, will you? ;) this topic asked if the sale policy of SA with DW maybe was unwise, if there was a lack of advertisment maybe, or if the shipping model was the best option, and on that I commented in my first reply, before you guys started to bring this thing down again, and I commented on the niche-segment the game covers, still beeing rivalled by SC, I reported that many people know of the game and still don't buy it, and I thought loud that not only SC and the complexity may have something to do with it, but also the after half a year still missing final patch - as one factor amongst others. Jamie admitted some weeks ago that things don'T sell as well as they hoped. Why this is so is the theme of this topic, not Skybird. But what makes skybird still beeing hesitant to buy NOW nevertheless may shed some light on one of the reasons, a reason that obviously is shared by many others.

The comment on money-back: that is my reply to your guy's queer logic that one can only judge if it is worth to buy if one buys it, because if you find out that you better would have not and kept weaiting, you will be left with the damage alone. Of course you think BEFORE you buy, for the reason that you have not back-deal-insurance. Don't understand your complaints on that.

you like the game like it is and spend money for it, okay, no problem for me. currently I have doubts that is is worth for me, you read: I speak of >>ME<<, to spend 65 bucks for it, and I gave my reasons for that in two threads earlier, some weeks and months ago, and touched them shortly here again. Now could this be okay for you, please? ;)

I would like to refer to Mark's answer some postings above. There were some things worth to be think about in his reply, and that maybe are part of the answer to this thread'S internal question, why DW does not sell as expected. This is the thing that we discuss here - not Skybird.

Looks like we are heading to a Sea State of 5 here.

Well, I don't have an axe to grind for or against DW. (I admit to having an axe to grind with Starforce and I hope by my personal decision to not buy any products which use it and inform others of the issues that publishers will abandon such technology. Which, if you wish, may be deemed an negative posture vis-a-vis SH3.)

Yes, I have not purchased DW. However, I did try the demo, read reviews, read Nottefallmappe, and follow the BFC and Subsim DW forums. So, I would not consider myself ignorant of DW's new features and how it compares to SC in the common platforms.

I see no reason why I cannot or should not participate in this forum. I do my best to maintain my manners being respectful of other members, moderators, and developers.

I think it would be a sad precedent if forum access/participation were to be restricted to "customers only"; not that it could be done, but I think it would do more harm than good to the community, publishers, and developers.

If I have offended anyone here, I apologize.

OK, I'll make a few comments here and then let you guys resume your discussion...

Mods (SCX and DWX) - I think the important thing to note here is that the architecture is set up (with the Models and Databases) such that the gameplay experience can be totally transformed. SCX was created by 1000's of hours of hard work and should be applauded (as I have many times). However, different people prefer different play styles... I have received numerous e-mails from customers who enjoyed the stock v1.08 of SC and were grateful that we did not make it as hard to detect the enemy as SCX was. These players' hard-earned money is just as valuable as the hardcore player's, so should we just ignore them? I contend that that is what makes SCX such an invaluable alternative and addition. The hardcore players are presented with an option for SP and MP that many feel as invaluable... as do I. I'm not sure what the status is on DWX, but when the time comes I can assure you that we will do the very best that we can to support their efforts.

Retail Distribution - If we didn't feel that DW had a really good chance to succeed in retail then we would not be pursuing it (especially with a smartly designed game box full of review quotes, that would certainly help :P). We feel that this is one of our strongest titles that we've released and hope that the retail audience will appreciate the innovative and distinct gameplay style which is offers. Once I have news, I will report it... I promise. ;)

Feel free to resume your SC and DW criticisms... I apologize for the interuption. :cool:

Hey Markshot,

Like Skybird, we just must work harder to convince you, that is all... You are more than welcome to express you opinions, and I appreciate your feedback, always. :know:

Perhaps that retail box could contain an insert and a back cover blurb about the wealth of online resources available for DW by a supportive community of dedicated players, modders, and mission designers. :up:

Mark,

again I find myself fully agreeing with what you said (especially with regard to starForce :lol: - i do the same like you, and here and at simhq I already got accused of beeing anti-GTR or anti-SH3, for these are the two SF games that I bought, and will be the last ones).

Jamie,

I tend to think that you understood that I am not personally angry at you or SA. I also hope for no added stuff, and mods, in 1.02 - just fix the last loose ends (that's all what we are talking about, right?) that are there according to the feedback here in this forum, and maybe do so before Xmas - and I'll happily come aboard. But after many angry experiences and dissapointments with games in the last 15 or more years, it is a principle thing for me in the main not to become a paying customer before something is completed, it's not just SA and DW. I violated this rule just some days ago with F4AF - and consequenctly was greeted with a massive stepback in what had been acchieved in mods in recent years. Sticking to this principle to wait (like I did not with F4AF :lol:) you could call a policy of mine, like you and SA have yours. ;)

>>Friendly<< greetings,
Sky

Some of the comments here remind me of the old definition of a consultant...

A person who can tell you 300 ways to make love to a woman, but has never had a girlfriend.

Or put another way, some people never let their lack of knowledge keep them from forming and expressing an opinion.

JCC

A fine excuse for always buying blindly without asking before. Salesmen must love you! ;) Are you one yourself, maybe? :lol:

My God, what a Kindergarden.

I wonder why I do not read printed PC-mags anymore - maybe because the reviews there are also very tame and never ask critical questions, showing the light, but only rarely the shadow.

Or is it that feedback of every player/owner who reported about some small or not so small things in DW in past month necessarily must have been wrong - wrong because not beeing totally enthusiastic about it ? :doh:

Before someone thinks he must carry on directly or indirectly pointing finger at me for my "bashinh of SA" or critizising the going of DW (both never took place), this is my original answer in this thread, beyond which I had no intention to write anything, if I wouldn't have been personally confronted with some critizism that had not too much to do with my original text, I print it in full length so that noone can say he is overcharged in seaching it himself:
-----
"Let's face it, DW is very much a niche-product, and the already narrow niche it occupies is made even smaller by the fact that SC is still popular and played by not a few. For those players amongst these that hold a primary interest, or a more or less exclusive interest, in subs only (like myself), DW does not add so much that goes beyond SC. I never was interested in Destroyer Command, for example, and my interest in the Perry in DW is existant, but small for that reason. The helo and the Orion doesn't attract me at all. What is left for me is an additional new sub, and a refining of the general submarine simulation elements - i hope. Also, since half a year now we wait for the announced (final?) patch, they mentioned their reasons while it lasts so long, these reasons are understandable, but their reasons is their business, not their potential customer's business. A final condition of the game that needs no more patches still could make me ordering it. But currently, for the reasons I explained, I just can ask: why should I buy now, in advance of a final patch? I am beyond the age where I like to constantly patch a thing that I fully payed for. And what about data base edits, like the weapons data fix by Amizaur et. al. that came out some days ago? It sounded very interesting, but it probably will need to be redone with patch 1.02. But that kind of hobby, constantly dancing with my installation, is something that I am not so much interesed in as well. Falcon was enough

I think they made just some sort of miscalculation when estimating how big the general interest for a multi-platform sim of this complexity would be. some months ago (I vaguely remember that I mentioned it back then), I described the sim to some friends and people, and their initial medium interest immediately dropped when I mentioned the 500+ pages manual and the complexity. These guys usually play sims like Falcon, Flanker, IL2 and Steel Beasts, very much like myself. Complexity and thick manuals also attract flightsim lovers in general, but the interest for subs is significantly less, and fans of this matter are not as often to be met. This community here may not like it, since it is "the core" of sub-simulation-fans, but this community cannot compare in size to the fans of complex flightsims, I think by far it can not. So the bitter truth probably is that the market for a sim like DW wasn't as big as expected from the very beginning, and SC from the beginning was in still too strong rivalry to it, decreasing it's chances even further.

I personally am about to run out of patience, and interest, the wait for the final patching slowly but constantly reaches the time odyssey I remember from SC, and even if this is the kind they usually do their business - it is not the style of working that I >>>as a paying customer<<< can find satisfying - not for that price.

I am not so sure that more adverts and promoting would have changed the general sale numbers so much for the better. People that I ask about it, and told about it, usually had heared of DW. Potential customers do know that the game can be bought, and many also know battlefront.com. It seems they simply have not as much general interest to buy DW, for whatever their reasons are.

In shorter words: maybe Sonalysts went to the wrong party, and also brought the wrong music with them, and now they wonder why they find it difficult to find as many partners for dancing as they expected.

This thread is not meant as rethorical bashing by me, I just explain the situation as sober and fact-oriented as possible. Since I have not invested any money so far, I am at complete peace with Sonalyst. I prefer it this way, compared to the year I was highly busy with SC. When that final patch came out, frustration had already brought down what was left of my interest in S"

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Anyone else, or could we leave it to that now...? Almost the whole second page of this thread has been unnecessary.