So far it's been legitimate debate. If it degrades I'm sure Jim will see to it. :sunny:

Just making sure that they know that i'll approve of that action if they need to close it. Think of this as a preemptive strike on those who would otherwise heat the thread beyond boiling point.

Im sorry. It has been some time since I have read the Constitution, and I'll read through it and post again with a better response at a later time.

I will say that I prefer the Declaration over the Constitution though. It really shows the meaning and reason that the colonies broke off from Britain, and the ideals we originally meant to uphold.

OK, I admit I'm beat. I know when to concede.

I've been in quite the black mood for the last few days on account of real life, and I may have taken some of my frustration out on the poor, undeserving internet.

/RANT

Rgr that.

*Reaches over for more popcorn*

I've got the cure for what ails ya...
 

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/b...minator_10.jpg
Grin and bear it.

I believe that if George Washington were still alive today, he would be spending most of his time muttering under his breath "I told you so."

Don't. Debates are fun. I'll also admit that I've lost more than I've won.

But...

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should be not victory, but progress."
―Joseph Joubert

"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it."
―Joseph Joubert

...and...

"I never learned from a man who agreed with me."
―Robert A. Heinlein

I can understand that. I've certainly been there myself.

As for the 2nd Amendment, I can bring up lots of quotes to support my claims, but, as with the Standing Military question, it's always possible that the Founders were actually wrong, and debates such as this should never be allowed to die. In line with my second Joubert quote above, when we stop debating issues like this the we become settled, and possibly miss the better path.

I figure they'd take one look at the nation today and start plotting the next revolution.

The first thing our founding fathers would do is take one look at this list of taxes and pass a bill that would enable them to be tax free: http://www.balancedpolitics.org/editorials/100_taxes_you_pay.htm

Personal/Consumer Taxes & Fees

1. Federal income tax
2. State income tax
3. Local income tax
4. Employee social security tax (your employer pays the other half)
5. Employee Medicare tax (your employer pays the other half)
6. Property taxes
7. Road toll charges
8. State sales tax
9. Driver's license renewal fee
10. TV Cable/Satellite fees & taxes
11. Federal telephone surtax, excise tax, and universal surcharge
12. State telephone excise tax and surcharge
13. Telephone minimum usage and recurring/nonrecurring charges tax
14. Gas/electric bill fees & taxes
15. Water/sewer fees & taxes
16. Cigarette tax
17. Alcohol tax
18. Federal gasoline tax
19. State gasoline tax
20. Local gasoline tax
21. Federal inheritance tax
22. State inheritance tax
23. Gift tax
24. Bridge toll charges
25. Marriage license
26. Hunting license
27. Fishing license
28. Bike license fee
29. Dog permit/license
30. State park permit
31. Watercraft registration & licensing fees
32. Sports stadium tax
33. Bike/nature trail permit
34. Court case filing fee
35. Retirement account early withdrawal penalty
36. Individual health insurance mandate tax
37. Hotel stay tax
38. Plastic surgery surcharge
39. Soda/fatty-food tax
40. Air transportation tax
41. Electronic transmission of tax return fees
42. Passport application/renewal fee
43. Luxury & gas-guzzler car taxes
44. New car surcharge
45. License plate and car ownership transfer taxes
46. Yacht and luxury boat taxes
47. Jewelry taxes & surcharges
48. State/local school tax
49. Recreational vehicle tax
50. Special assessments for road repairs or construction
51. Gun ownership permit
52. Kiddie tax (IRS form 8615)
53. Fuel gross receipts tax
54. Waste Management tax
55. Oil and gas assessment tax
56. Use taxes (on out-of-state purchase)
57. IRA rollover tax/withdrawal penalties
58. Tax on non-qualified health saving account distributions
59. Individual and small business surtax (page 336 of Obamacare)
60. Estimated income tax underpayment penalty
61. Alternative Minimum Tax on income Business Taxes & Fees
62. Federal corporate income tax
63. State corporate income tax
64. Tax registration fee for new businesses
65. Employer social security tax
66. Employer Medicare tax
67. Federal unemployment tax
68. State unemployment tax
69. Business registration renewal tax
70. Worker's compensation tax
71. Tax on imported/exported goods
72. Oil storage/inspection fees
73. Employer health insurance mandate tax
74. Excise Tax on Charitable Hospitals (page 2001/Sec. 9007 of Obamacare)
75. Tax on Innovator Drug Companies (Page 2010/Sec. 9008 of Obamacare)
76. Tax on Medical Device Manufacturers (Page 2020/Sec. 9009 of Obamacare)
77. Tax on Health Insurers (Page 2026/Sec. 9010 of Obamacare)
78. Excise Tax on Comprehensive Health Insurance Plans, i.e. "Cadillac" plans
79. Tax on indoor tanning services
80. Utility users tax
81. Internet transaction fee (passed in California; being considered in other states and at federal level)
82. Professional license fee (accountants, lawyers, barbers, dentists, plumbers, etc.)
83. Franchise business tax
84. Tourism and concession license fee
85. Wiring inspection fees
86. Household employment tax
87. Biodiesel fuel tax
88. FDIC tax (insurance premium on bank deposits)
89. Electronic waste recycling fee
90. Hazardous material disposal fee
91. Food & beverage license fee
92. Estimated income tax underpayment penalty
93. Building/construction permit
94. Zoning permit
95. Fire inspection fee
96. Well permit tax
97. Sales and Use tax seller's permit
98. Commercial driver's license fee
99. Bank ATM transaction tax
100. Occupation taxes and fees (annual charges required for a host of professions

How many of those taxes had an equivalent form during the time of those people?
I would say that it is lots and lots of them.
So why would they suddenly go "tax free" on them now?

In America
 

Today we have discovered that taxation "with" representation isn't much better than "without" it. But, considering how Congress has been acting lately, it's definitely "without":-?