SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Florida man kills door-to-door salesman: I’ll kill anybody that steps on my property"

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Over the years, I read too many contradictory statistics as if I would be willng to see a causal, linear link anymore like "more guns, more liberal gun laws = less crime/more crime", or "less guns, tighter laws = more/less crime". For each such statement, there is a coutnerexample in statistics on nations.

There seem to be a link between two different things, though. There seesm to be a link between what i could not describe any better or different than a cultural or attitude thing towards both weapons and violence - may it be the use of violent means by law enforcement or court penalties, may it be the violence of crime. There are places that have tougher and places that have more lenient gun laws than the US, but for both cases you fiond nations with more and with less crime taking place.

The one characteristic that I see as consistently sticking to US culture, is the fetish for violence: the fascination (military, media, games, films), the fear of it, the acceptance of what in Eurppe is soncosdered munaccpetable topugh court sentences (boot camps, death penalty), the porpagating on behalf of the latter, the violence of anti-abortion protests and the attitude of extremist anti-atheist movements. You cannot escape to claim that in one sens eor the other, the American soceity saeems to be the most violent society of all Western nations, and quite some non-Western nations as well.

That is not meant as US-bashing, but is meant as a sober description like leather trousers belong to Bavaria.

That's why the underlying problem of excesses like this in the US cannot be solved by legislation. It is a cultural problem, an attitude problem, a mentality problem. And this can only be tackled by - education and social developement to redcue the need of street crime. A man who has a perspective in live and can make a living by fair means, has much less incentives to turn into a street robber, than saopmebody who grew up in streets gangs, has no future, and fights to make a monthly living.

The occasional suicide or family drama or crime commited by guns you can never prevent , and to change legislation completely because something happened again, is not needed and does little. Whenever somethjing happens in germany, the public outcry immediately becomes almost hysteric, and everybody yells for tougher laws. But we already havew the toughest laws in Europo, they have been tightened repeatedly in the past 20 years.

The best safety for a gun is - the owner's well-controlled temper, and a good social and education standard.

I see no need currently to - illegally now - get a gun in Germany (to get one legally is a parcours designed to discourage all but the most determined guys now, and you must constantly file the memebership and regular excercising in a passport. If you fail to officially join 18 shooting sessions per year in a registered sports club, you lose your license). - But if I were to move into the US, I would get one.

However, I think that the legal market should only offer hunti ng rifles for hunting and small arms like poiostols and revolvers. Any military, semi-miulitary guns or rifles or automatic or semiautomatic may be nice to wage street war - but that hardly is what protecting your home and your family is about. Else there is no reason why missiles, grenades, mines and cannons shouldn't be owned by private "collectors" as well.

Let'S keep it in perspective. If you think you could face a trigger happy gang with machine guns any time soon, you better move out of the place where you stay, instead of starting an arms race that turns you into a paranoid.

Quote:

Originally Posted by August (Post 1915386)

What problem? Crazy people or door to door salesmen who ignore no trespassing signs?

Well those door to door salemen can sometime be a real pain in the ....

thought more about all the "incidents" which have occurred recently
The killing of a young person by a kind of guard
The killing of 12 people in a cinema
The killing of a salesman
And no doubt many more incidents that have not been shown in the major newspapers.
As I see it, it will be lot of these type of killings of innocent Americans, if nothing is being done about it.

That's why I ask

Do you have a solution, 'cause you have to do something about it.

Markus

Quote:

- But if I were to move into the US, I would get one

Lets hope not...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mapuc (Post 1915405)

In every one of those cases there has been an arrest and there will be a trial and if the accused is found guilty some sort of sentence so it's hardly a case of nothing being done about it.

But human nature is human nature. These things have been occurred in every human society throughout history. You're not going to "do something" about that. The best you can do is be prepared to defend yourself if it happens to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by u crank (Post 1915307)

Let's hope that it happens.:up:

it seem so, according to the article he is being charged with second-degree murder.

Markus

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 1915361)

If everyone in that dark, panicked and smoke/gas filled theatre had a gun and started shooting, I think it would have turned out much worse than it did.

2 or 3 people are not everyone. If EVERYONE in that theater had been armed - or even had the perp THOUGHT that a high percentage of people were armed, the tragedy would never have occured.

Or do you think he bought and wore ballistic protection for no reason?

for the ones you says ban guns and any other weapons first of all you can kill someone with just two fingers what you going do take my fingers away but as a gun owner there a responsiblty that i have,the guy in florida was wrong to act that way and should get a long time in prison,its not the gun that kills it is the person a bullit dont have a brain its going go where it is aim

Dont forget we need to regulate baseball bats too.

Video: http://www.news9.com/global/category...clipid=7540482

Article:

Quote:

... I loved the sound of the tiny little 'ping' followed by the sudden EEEEYAAAHHH! The best part, though, was when the 'alleged' burglar woke up and this exchange took place:

Caution vulgar language in video and article.

Im sorry, but when I hear that 'PING' from what must have been a Louisville Slugger TPX Omaha BBCOR making contact with on the perps head I laughed too.

So do the jehovah's Nitwits still knock on his door?:haha:

Several posts on gun control, but not one on the actual issue that i saw:

Let's go over this again, form the article:

Quote:

A co-worker who witnessed the shooting said Rainey had knocked on Roop;s door, but received no answer. While Rainey was walking down the drive-way, Roop pulled up in his pickup truck and asked why Rainey was at his house. Rainey explained that he was selling steak and seafood. The witness said Roop then pulled out a black handgun and shot Rainey. As Rainey lay on the ground, Roop fired another bullet into the back of his head.

Roop later told police that he shot Rainey in the head "for effect" and that he had three no trespassing signs on his property. Roop said he feared for his life.

"I'm not going to give him the chance to do something to me," he told police. "I was in fear.";

Important parts emphasized. Now, examine the prelude to the situation. pulled up in his pickup, asked what the guy was doing at his house, and THEN fired. He drove up to the guy in his pickup. This wasn't a breakin, the salesman didn't approach him with, or brandished a weapon, made no menacing gestures, no action that i can see was inciting fear. Yet this florduh man is saying he was fearful. Why?

Stand-your-ground law

In case you can't be bothered to read any information on that, ill quote the important part:

Quote:

Controversy

Stand-your-ground laws are frequently criticized and called "shoot first" laws by critics, including the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.[41] In Florida, the law has resulted in self-defense claims tripling.[42][41] The law's critics argue that Florida's law makes it very difficult to prosecute cases against people who shoot others and then claim self-defense. The shooter can argue they felt threatened, and in most cases, the only witness who could have argued otherwise is the victim who was shot and killed.[41] Before passage of the law, Miami police chief John F. Timoney called the law unnecessary and dangerous in that "[w]hether it's trick-or-treaters or kids playing in the yard of someone who doesn't want them there or some drunk guy stumbling into the wrong house, you're encouraging people to possibly use deadly physical force where it shouldn't be used."[43][44]

In Florida, a task force examining the law has concluded that the law is "confusing."[45] Those testifying to the task force include Buddy Jacobs, a lawyer representing the Florida Prosecuting Attorney's Association. Jacobs recommended the law's repeal, feeling that modifying the law would not fix its problems. Florida governor Rick Scott plans his own investigation into the law.[45]

The Trayvon Martin case brought a large degree of criticism to the law. Legal experts are split as to whether charges will be dropped under Florida's stand-your-ground law before the case even goes to trial, as the extant Florida law allows the shooter, George Zimmerman, to argue that the charges should be dropped before trial even begins. Legal experts are also split as to whether Zimmerman's actions will be viewed as self-defense, should the case go to trial.[41]

Again, gun control is not the issue here. It's this stupid law.