I'm not religious person at all but i cant deny or confirm to my self existence of God or some super-being or whatever lol.
From my point of view god may have created the universe.
Still i find it funny that people are required to thank him 3 or 5 times a day for living and the more they do it the closer to god and better people they are.
I always say that if god requires that of man he must have real ego problem.
On another hand the struggele between the good and evil is what propelers and shapes us.
World and life would be meaningless if only one exited.
So if god exists then maybe he knows what he is doing or maybe bible simply tries to froward this idea.

Science certainly cannot answer all the questions of the universe, but we don't deny science. Beyond that it is a matter of faith and each is subject to his own.

Every person, religious or secular has events in their life that one could deem a miracle or a random event. No different than bad things. Fate can deal hands good or bad, but I've never seen a miracle beyond science, you know, someone raised from the dead, a lost arm regrown. Most acts of great kindness seem to stem from humans, but I would think that's how God would expect us to act.

I studied greek for 2 years in bible college when I was young. As Steve stated, most prophecy was related to another era and was written after the fact, again denominations each define their own views.

Actually the bible says the Devil is powerful and great, but seems he's stupid. God's entire plan is laid out in a book before him, he knows he's powerless before God, yet he would fight on to total destruction. If he's so stupid he can't figure this out, why fear him or he is another creature made up so man can blame his failures yet again on something else.

Sure, and when you would be born in Saoudi Arabië, The Holy Koran.
Correct?

CaptainHaplo, you realy should read [url=http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136]this book[/quote], written bij Israëli scientists.

Or see this docu:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X-96hNrPcGg

Fish,

That book you mentioned postulates that there is no archeological proof of Abraham (for one). I specifically addressed that already - the existence of Abraham - who was born in Ur of the Chaldees - is given historical proof from the Ebla find. He and his birthplace were specifically mentioned in these secular texts. Just because 2 authors of a book want to ignore verifiable fact should give you a hint as to the veracity of their postulations.

The video you provided utilizes one of the authors of the book, so its reasonable to say that his demonstratable bias must be considered when looking at the video.

As for additional archeological proofs, many scholars disputed that the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah ever existed. The Ebla tablets also reference these cities, showing that they were known and did in fact exist.

The 1988 discoveries in Tel Ar Amama provides a third party view of the end of the Exodus period. While this does not substantiate the existence of a man named Moses, it does offer proof that the Biblical account of the wanderings (as the Habiru) is accurate.

Believe what you want, but its disinginuous to ignore data that doesn't further the "debunking" some want.

So your answer is to ignore the question? Wow, you won me over.

And you should try questioning the bible sometime - read it without the assumption that it's true.

Except when he's "hardening our hearts".

It's easy to answer that.

"In the absence of knowledge confusion reign"

"In the absence of knowledge fantasy, sentiment, prejudice wishful thinking and assumption takes precedence"

"In the absence of knowledge nothing is certain"

The only way to know that God is good is by knowing God. The catch is no one can come to God unless it is God who comes to him first. People can always try to come to God or be religious but most people forget that meeting God doesn't only happen in special occasion such as in prayer or at the church vicinity. The truth is God never disconnects from all things including each of us.

Now I can't show you God but I can testify that God is good.

When I was a 7th grader and having a hard time and suffering God answered my cry to Him and answered my request. God literally gave me an explosion of love(love of Christ) to enable me to see Christ and all the glory that is God. Couldn't see s**t but very bright intense white light which I believe was coming from His face.

That was the start of my encounter with God. He never leave me since then on. God would give me dreams to warn me ahead of time of disaster or tragedy. He has also allowed me to feel other people's heart and intention from time to time though seemingly random. it's not bounded by distance and sometime time and there have been occasions where I felt the whole of some nation ahead of time. But it nos has become rarer and even stopped.

He gave me his spirit to dwell in me couple times that gave me an overwhelming peace that literally put a smile on my face. It also made my heart turned gentle. It wasn't weak. Well I cannot describe it in words. I have since lost it because I watch porn from time to time. But while it last I felt like the richest person on the planet. The peace was like an ocean inside me and I felt totally safe anywhere. I only needed to become quiet before an ocean of peace put a smile on my face. I was convinced with that there's no fortresses that couldn't be opened no hearts that couldn't be won.

There was also a time when I felt so angry at a person and God took over. He told me that his life was hard and God literally turned my immense anger to explosion of love. I literally love the person so much but I didn't know really why. It was sincere and not made up. I didn't tell him anything and he wasn't looking at me at the time. Since then he never bothered me any longer.

There was also a time in 2006 where I asked God for something a bit outrageous for most people. He gave me just what I wanted within 3 seconds. It still took too long for me. But I knew those 3 seconds was a test for me to wait. Mind you the answer lasted much longer than 3 seconds but it took 3 seconds before I was given what I asked.

In 2008 God revealed to me how it felt to be in death. I've since better understand the bible teaching of death and resurrection. I've done my own research too looking for reference in the bible and have since made it a document. If you're interested in reading them PM me and I'll send you the doc through email. I treasure this knowledge very much as it is the only secret that God has so far told me. It's nothing new its all in the bible.

The last was in 2009. In my 30 year or so of living I've done some confessing as I'm a Catholic but I never knew how it felt to be forgiven by God at all until one day God told me that He forgave all my sins all of them out of a sudden when I was sitting in the church pew. I didn't ask for it it was really God's initiative. The spontaneous response to God was that I;d forgive everybody that sinned against me(well with the exception the people in power in Singapore that is) because I was overwhelmed with JOY out of forgiveness.

I remember the years of my relationship with God. I carry them in my life. I treasure them. They give me strength and consolation. I'm a still a Christian not because of my belief any longer but because God took me in.

I know most people are probably unable to believe my testament or even mock me but I don't care. I just want to testify that God is so awesome!

I agree, always questions, you learn nothing but what someone tells you if you don't question.

A free mind to choose right from wrong denies the human and cultural factors of man.

A child born in poverty in the ghetto without loving parents will usually be in a gang before puberty. Having no one to really teach him right from wrong, his mind will be set before puberty to know wrong. Unless he is one of the lucky few to escape, he'll probably move on to be a criminal.

The same with many prostitutes. They get trapped in it by childhood, rather forced into it often why children, then laced with dope non stop until life to them becomes worthless.

A child beaten and abused often beats and abuses when grown.

Right from wrong is something that is taught by culture. Like most things in culture we learn these things at a young age. It doesn't exist in our hearts, that is self preservation.

Compare that to those who are taught right from wrong, those that are loved at a young age, they will most often grow up different.

The bible says to train a child in it's youth, sort of proves the point.

So again a bias towards those brought up in poverty and unloved and not raised correctly.

Wait, so omniscient god needs to run tests? Whatever for?

Yes, it is a setup. They are punished for making a choice without anyway of knowing the consequences of that choice. How could they have knowledge of good and evil without first eating from the tree? It's a catch 22.

God said "don't eat from that tree, cuz ur dead if you do." God doesn't say it's evil to eat from it. Just that man shouldn't eat from it. You'd think an omniscient being would be more careful with his language.

And how do Adam and Eve have any knowledge of what death is in paradise? How do they know that they must obey god? It's a pretty poorly thought-through test for being the product of the creator of the universe.

If the only way to the father is through the son, and faith supersedes deeds, then god doomed the majority of the world's population for millenia, because they had to wait that long before even having the opportunity to believe in Jesus in the first place.

Indeed, it's funny how the distribution of saved people on Earth is so dependent on geography. It's almost as if it's just a story made up by people for whom the Mediterranean basin was more or less the extent of the known world.


Yes, you can. When god issues a commandment condoning lifelong slavery, or protecting a slave owner from punishment if the slave he has fatally beaten lingers before dying (I guess the slave's family doesn't deserve justice in god's eyes), then yes, you can blame god for the evil of slavery. You can also blame him for the idea that women are property, that rape is not a big deal, and that pillaging and war are perfectly acceptable, as he commands and oversees so much of it in the OT. And you can blame him for the crimes of inaction that he committed while he was supposedly among us in human form. Jesus could have prevented so much suffering by saying "Don't own slaves" or "Never kill in my name" or "Don't torture" or "Treat men and women equally". But he didn't.

Oh well, I guess doing things like ensuring that there would be enough refreshments for a local wedding party took priority over that stuff.


God is omniscient. He knows what's in his book. Yet he does nothing about it. How is that not blameworthy?

Huh? Why is imperfection a good thing?

You defended the creation story earlier. Did you notice that there are two contradictory creation stories in Genesis, and that they can't both be right?

What does that say about the bible, when there's a glaring contradiction on the very first page?

Why is it not our place to question it?

Angus, you touched on many valid points. I myself was a youth minister for a Ind. Fundy Baptist Church for years. In bible college when trying to learn greek, many question arose. When you study the bible from the perspective of culture and history, much takes on a different meaning. That was long ago.

The problem with evil and suffering has been debated since man knew it. Basically two camps, God ordained or allowed it, to me they're one in the same.

As you stated, the biblical story shows Adam and Eve couldn't have possibly eaten the fruit with a concious to know what it meant as the knowledge was in the fruit. Also, free will had to exist before they ate, because they chose to eat after being warned. Course how could they grasp a warning without knowledge. If you accept the biblical story then one must accept that God spoon fed them the fruit, because every piece was put in place and they had no knowledge of good or evil until after they ate. If they had it before, may have more doctrinal merit.

As for God allowing. If I allow my young kids to go outside and warn them not to play in the street, that implies I know the harm is there. If I knew the street was dangerous and allowed them to play anyway? If I saw the car coming and said nothing and it ran them over? Humanity, with it's simple ability to be loving and responsible would hold me responsible. I didn't allow, I put them in the position to be killed.

In general I think the story of evil in the bible is man's poetic way to try and explain evil.

Course, other things, in the OT all the Saints had many wives, often 100's of concubines, had sex with slave women, etc...as they were property with no rights at all. All that sex with God's approval and today the church tries to make kids think they're going to hell for masturbating.

Please note that commandments are not given to beasts and beings devoid of intellect. Through intellect one distingushes between truth (emeth) and falsehood (sheqer), and that was found in Adam in its perfection and integrity.

Fine and bad on the other hand belong to things generally accepted as known, not to those cognized by intellect. One doesn't say it is fine (tov) that heaven is spherical, and bad (ra) that the earth is flat, rather we say true and false with regard to these assertions.

Man in virtue of his intellect knows truth from falsehood. When man was in his most perfect state (Thou hast made him a little lower than Elohim) he had no faculty that was enagaged in any way in the consideration of generally accepted things, he did not apprehend them. An example of this would be the uncovering of genitals, this was not bad (ra) according to him and he did not apprehend it was bad. He just knew it to be a truth.

However when he disobeyed and inclined towards his desires ofthe imagination and the pleasures of his corporeal senses (that the tree was good for food and it was a delight to the eyes) he was punished by being deprived of that intellectual apprehension. He therefore disobeyed the commandment that was impossed upon him on account of his intellect and becoming ENDOWED with the faculty of generally apprehending generally accepted things. He became absorbed in judging things to be ra or tov.

Then he knew how great his loss was, what he was deprived of and upon what state he had entered (And ye shall be like Elohim knowing good (tov) and evil (ra)). He had entered into another state in which he considered as bad things that he had not seen in that light beofre.

I think about this and consider myself like Adam in a way. I think I could say my intellect perceives Yehovah's word as emeth. My eyes have been opened and know His Torah is something that is tov to consume.



Yes, the only way to Abba El is through the Son. But consider who the Son called Yeshua is first. He is Yehovah's Torah made manifest in the flesh. Abiding in Him means you abide in Torah which translated into english is Teachings or Wisdom. I do not look to abide in God's Torah as a means to salvation but rather as a result of it. Even my father Abraham abided in His living Torah and was saved from God's wrath.

Yehovah chose a particular people to be His. He gave His Teaching to them and it was to be a light unto the nations. So it seems logical it would start from a certain geographical location and spread out from there.


I suggest you look further into his commandments and other commentaries from the time and see how the slaves of Hebrew masters were to be treated. They were treated like family. Furthermore you assume too much because nowhere in Torah does it allow a master to fatally beat a slave or abuse him. Nor does Exodus 21:20-21 even come close to implying that.

Rather what is being said here is if the master beat his slave. And the slave continues (amad) after a day or two and dies the master shall not be punished. Do you know what 'continues' means here? It means the slave was able to stand, rise up, to go about his business, to hold his ground. It does NOT mean he is lying there in a bloody pile of flesh waiting to die. For that the master would surely be punished under Yehovah's commandments. Also don't think the word slave in Ancient times has the same meaning it does today. The were workers employed to a certain man and under obligation to him. The master fed him, clothed him, sheltered him, educated him, shared the same God, Teachings and Feasts like I said became almost like family. The way things were structure back then is if the slave was disobedient or lazy he could be beaten. Similar I reckon to that of the Bosun when in the age of sail would strike a slacker with his 'motivator'. Is it something I could stomach today? Not likely but it was a fact of life back then.

Translators of the bible use of the word ‘rape’ had a much broader meaning than what we call rape (chazak, which suggests a violent seizure) today. It could also be used in “seduction,” (tabas). And it is "Tabas" that is being presented here, a man seducing a virgin he is not married to with her consent. Understand the culture and the time and you will have better understanding why these commandments were given. The father of a daughter had much to loose if she was lead astray and seduced by a man. This commandment instructs the seducer to follow through with his sexual advances with marriage. And pay the father what would have been due him had she been promised to another.


What Yehovah gave to His children was a land filled with idolatry and pagan sacrifice. He instructed them to rid the land of it by destroying the inhabitants. He is a jealous God so Yehovah plus Zeus will not be tolerated. Which is one of the reasons why I worship Him and no other.

Care to illustrate or identify these passages? Because I would be more than happy to speak of these things with you. :)

Oh well, I guess doing things like ensuring that there would be enough refreshments for a local wedding party took priority over that stuff.


<--- would take a more than a few moments but if you'd like I could attempt to explain it. But it is only my opinion


I think I might know what you are reffering to but I will go so far to say there are NOT two stories only one Angus. If you could be specific I will explain.


By all means question! But allow me to suggest we be like the Bereans and when someone talks about something in scripture at least allow scripture defend itself. How? We need to open scripture up to see if those things they say are so. Which is my advice to you regarding everything I have written here too. :salute:

@Rockstar
'hazak' (חזק) in Hebrew means strong.
'O ne s' (אונס) means rape or forced

That is unless i missunerstood what you are saying.
Very intresting thread :salute:

Sorry MH I don't speak Hebrew, all I have really is a strong's concordance, books by Jewish commentators, a few living Hakkam and others such as yourself to help me out.


Exodus 22:16 is the first time this commandment is mentioned. Deuteronomy 22:28 is the second witness which also goes into more detail as to the responsibilities expected of the man after he has seduced the woman.

Deu 22:28 - If a man find a damsel [that is] a virgin, which is not betrothed , and lay hold (tabas) on her, and lie with her, and they be found...


However here in Deuteronomy 22:25 is an example of the punishment a man must endure who has forced (chazaq) a damsel. He must be put to death and rightly so IMO.

Deu 22:25 - But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force (chazaq) her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

Though I believe we could iron out the details of the meaning of these translations. I think we can agree even now the God of Israel is not the author of a morally heinous commandment of allowing a rapist to go free.

Peace bro'

The death penalty wasn't incurred because of the rape of a women, it was over the fathers property right. Actually a man was not always put to death for rape. It was up to the father. The father could make him pay the fine per say, his dowry rights for the loss of her virgin status and even demand marriage. If it was rape, it was up to the father. If he wanted he could pardon, yet he had the right also death. Still, other laws applied, witnesses, her virgin status, etc..

If it was just sex mutally agreed upon out of wedlock then it wasn't a death sentence, the father again could demand payment for her virgin status and order marriage. If the father didn't want marriage, he could take the money and the lad was sent on his way without further rebuke.

The same biblical laws apply for slave women caught after battle. Often sides battled out until one was almost destroyed and many women were taken captive. She became the captors property. She had to go through a mourning process, the man could then have sex with her regardless of her wanting it. After having sex he would take her as a wife. If he had sex with her and didn't marry her, he had to let her go and give her freedom.
These were the biblical rules, there was no punishment for taking the woman and having sex with her due to her slave status as she was your property, not the property of the father.