SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Rise of Flight ICE, Black Shark, A-10

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- - Rise of Flight ICE, Black Shark, A-10 (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=180733)

After having commented on RoF, I still owe Oberon my set of thoughts about Black Shark.

My interest in RoF has fallen very rapidly. Despite the looks, there is not much that keeps me interested. And some of the flight models are - well, terrible to fly. Maybe realistic or not (they have debates about that in their forums, some seem to be simply buggy), but dogfighting in this sim is something I do not enjoy at all. And beside dogfighting - there is nothing in this package. It's Il2 with different planes that move like a bronco on hot coals, and with better looks - not more than this RoF is.

Test before you buy, I only recommend.

Black Shark now has gotten me to invest quite some time into it now. That is due to the very high complexity of the cockpit functions. It reminds me much of a complex module for FS9 or FSX. Seen that way, I like it, I also like the challenging but managable flight characteristics. It feels good to sit in this cockpit with TrackIR and trying to stay in command of what is going on.

The package as a whole is very sterile, however, and ergonomic interfaces is nothing they will ever learn to do right, I think. There is no campagin atmosphere and no immersion on an emotional, personalised level. The AI is weak, simply that. You need at least a good AI to compensate weaklnesses in mission desiogns or lacking campaigns, or you need to have a good camoaign mode in order to attract you despite weak AI. If both things are weak, than thius is not good. They were too focussed on the helicpoter exclusively, I think. That leaves you with a formidably modelled flight-and-hover war machine - and with little argument to use it and get it started. "Same procedure as every year", one may quote the movie, when considering their record of titles from Flanker over Flanker 2 and 2.5 to LOMAC and now BS. They all suffer from the same disease: sterility, lacking atmosphere. For this simple reason I will think twice and three times before buying A10 now. By their record, I expect great flying-the-machine - and not much more. And that is not enough for a good sim.

So Msalama has it right and wrong, I think. The helicpoter itself seems to be simulated quite realistically, and complex, and so far that is a great sim. But simulation also includes the environment and interaction with it, the drama of being part of a mission, feeling as part of a team with an enemy going after me. But here, once again they do not deliver at all. Seen this way, this is a weak simulation. It does not compare in these regards to SBP, F4, or SH3.

I fly Black Shark to become better in flying the helicopter, it is the same motivation I have for flying a complex airliner in FS. But I see my interest ending in that.

And that's why I do not forsee this to become a lontime love affair of mine, like other simulations out there. If you like this kind of study sims, get it, it is great. If you look for a good combat and interactive warfare simulation with longtime appeal, look somewhere else.

Some Wetsern studios can learn from these Eastern one regarding simulation precision of the technical models. But the Eastern ones need tol learn from their Western counterparts regarding immersion, longterm motivation, atmosphere. They are simply too sterile - since so many years now.

I wouldn't buy RoF again (also because of their business model which I do not like one bit). BS I would buy again, but never for full price, only for smile price packages.

My personal benchmarks for simulation immersion and atmosphere are SBP, F4 and SH3. RoF snd BS in no way play in that league. In technical accuratesse, they are on par indeed, with RoF really mlooking fantastic. But technciual accuracy alone is not all what makes a great simulation package.

My great hope for the old Longbow2-kind of mission feeling is Combat Helo whose progress I follow since months now.

All my comments on both sims from SP perspective.

BTW, about A10, DCS writes on it'S website:

THE ADMINISTRATOR RIGHTS FOR INSTALLATION AND GAME RUN, LAN AND INTERNET PLAY REQUIRE INTERNET CONNECTION

Does this mean people need constant internet connection for running it in singleplayer/offline mode, like the UBI-disease in SH5, and the early RoF ?

No, it's just like Black Shark...

Thanks for the reviews Sky. My primary hope with ROF is the new developing team they have behind it, and the 'Career Mode' which they aim to bring to it. I think that might help with some of what you express about it. Here is a list of what they hope to include, admittedly I know the word hope is certainly not a definitive, but it shows that their heart is in the right place:

Quote:

Covers 700 days of the Great War. More days may be added if we build planes from even earlier in the war.
Continued promotion through the ranks.
Changing Weather with Seasonal Textures (Summer, Autumn and Winter).
New Titles and Awards.
More than 15 different types of missions.
New types of gameplay, such as adjusting artillery fire or photo reconnaissance, with new interactive elements and equipment such a wireless radio and/or camera added to your plane. You can also watch real-time changes in the world based on the results of your actions such as corrected artillery fire.
A higher level of interactivity and randomness during missions, for example, flying close to an enemy's airfield could trigger enemy fighters to intercept you.
Combines your personal statistics, events and achievements with real history.
Interactive map of hostilities with information about current operations at the front and the location of various units and squadrons.
Historically correct squadron’s location and re-locations.
Historically correct automatic mission completion by A.I. pilots in missions not involving the player using a new technique we developed.
Historically correct awards and conditions for awards.
Realistic calendar of European Weather
Virtual "Newspaper", depicting timely events at the front, new inventions in science and technology, and list of important aces published on a regular basis.
All virtual A.I. squadron mates have their own names, grow in rank and abilities, go the hospital if needed and receive awards for their actions.
Ability to meet historic allied or enemy aces in combat situations. If you kill a famous enemy ace he will not re-appear and his kill total will stop in the press.
Ability to be transferred to another squadron with promotion in rank.
Realistic attrition of personnel and material in your squadron.
Repair of damaged aircraft and hospitalization of wounded pilots.
Ability to use a custom paintjob after 5 kills.
Opportunity to become a squadron commander and plan missions.
Planning includes the selection of pilots and aircrafts, which will participate in your flight.
Editing a route: choice of range, move waypoints, a height indicator, buildings types, speeds and altitudes.
Many new villages, town and industrial areas added to the map along with windsocks at airfields.

I might hold off getting RoF until this upgrade, or I might take the plunge...a lot of it depends on how much I get paid and how much gets eaten by various needs before I can allocate it towards presents for myself.
I will probably pass on Black Shark though, unless, as you say, I come across it on offer. I have often found myself overwhelmed in a modern war sim with the detail of Black Shark due to the sheer amount of buttons required to designate and fire a weapon at a target which is shooting back at you at the same time, or in the case of a fast mover, which is passing by you at about 500mph. Either way I value your input and thank you for taking the time to write up a review on both. :up:

Your list on RoF seems to be the contenbt of the latest update. Which I ran yesterday and gave me quite some troubles, because of their server instability. You need to understand that you must synchronise your copy/installation with the online profile of yours even if you want to play offline. The update was loaded and installed, but the final step did not happen due to their server being down - leaviong me unable to even lanch the offline version. I waited for the afternoon to pass, then finally they got their stuff working, the synchronisation was finished and my copy was freeded of its chains. But even when you play offlione, or want tpo, the copy checks fopr updates, and if it finds there is one, it does not let you play offline as long as you have not updated - seen that way, the talking of that now you can play offline even without constant internet connection, must be relativised. And yes, obviously whenever you launch an offline session it obviously nevertheless connects to their server - maybe not constantly, but somehoiw it must get the info that there is an update, right? I first tried to play offline, it did not let me.

I HATE THIS KIND OF BUSINESS MODEL. First and last time I ever accepted it. Hope it will get stuck in the throats of all studios using this .

The update content does not seem to effect offline play, only online play.

Testplay it, if you can. Some of the flight models are bitches. And I used many different setups for the axis response curves... Great looks, but for me: much frustration and anger.

If you want a good dogfighter, try Battle of Britain II, the old one I mean with patch 2.11. It'S the best dogfighter I know. They even modelled the "freezing stick" when the planes becomes too fast and you cannot move the damn thing anymore. And the plane itself is a bit more understanding about pointing the gun at where you want it to point at. The bopping noses in RoF were not what entertained me. BoBII leaves all IL-2 dogfighting in the dust, really. Even the AI is much better, and more competent.

Again, I see it from SP perspective only.

P.S. Black Shark is smile price now, I got it for I think 15 Euros: sealed, CD, small booklet, the first regular release. And flying that thing is enjoyable, I really do admit that. It's no chopper on invisible rails, if you know what I mean, it is not as tame and lazy as Longbow 2's flight model, but it also is not suffering the hysteric collective syndrome I complain about inEnemy Engaged. This part of their sim they got perfectly right. I'm trying artistic flying with it - difficult, but can be done. And the cockpit is a marvel to look at - even more with the available HighRes mod I am using - making it crispy-clear. But parts of the avionics is a science. If just wanting to fly, you do not need all that stuff, however.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1 (Post 1629216)

No, it's just like Black Shark...

Thanks, but what do they mean then when saying that you require internet connection when running the game as administrator?

No, you require to run as Admin to play the game and an Internet connection if you want to play multiplayer.

just to point you out that line is probally mistranslated....since when do you need a Internet Connection to play via LAN?

HunterICX

Just checked, and apparently you do need to be connected to their master server to play through LAN, which is rather odd. Though single player works just fine without an internet connection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HunterICX (Post 1629374)

No, it is no translation by me, but the pasted/copied original text.

http://www.digitalcombatsimulator.co...r=shop&lang=en
First text box at the top.

You log in when you go to MP, much like games like Men of War where you log in to Gamespy (?). Just in this case you log in to ED server, rather than something third-party (and therefore by definition crap :O:).

Quote:

So Msalama has it right and wrong, I think.

No, I meant "the best" as in comprehensively simulating the machines they model, because solely by that criteria that is indeed what they are. But when it comes to the syntethic world where those simulated machines fly and fight... well, I agree, not so much :hmmm:

Bah, y'all jes' gotta be a nerd like myself. :lol:

Quote:

Originally Posted by msalama (Post 1631400)

Yes, I am aware of what you mean. That'S why I differed between the simulation aspect of the helicopter, and the whole package they sell. The simulation ofnthe machine if great, the package is sub-standard. I blindly believe that it is also a great sim for A-10's aircraft, their forum shows people celebrating already when they manage to do a takeoff after a dark&cold condition at startup. But I expect, after Flanker 1+2, LOMAC and BS, that the complete package, the world, feels as sterile and lifeless as always - even during combat.

The developer does not lack in technical competence, they seem to have plenty and lots and lots of it. What they lack is a sense for ergonomic package handling, and general package design.

They have great storylines to tell - but they are lousy narrators. And they do not learn to improve on that - since many years.

I just fly the Black Shark for the sake of flying. So much fun it is. :yep:

Quote:

I just fly the Black Shark for the sake of flying. So much fun it is. :yep:

Tää miäs tajuaa :lol:

(translation: +1)

No, what Dowly says, the flight modelling is indeed so great - and the systems management so comprehensive - that you'll enjoy just flying the beast from A to B if that's your preferred form of cup of whatever...

Two awesome videos of the real Ka-50, watch them and you just want to go and have a fly. :O:

(Love that music :oops:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykI7-vG7Nos

(That side-skid is just oh so awesome :D)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNdKfDNwf5Q

Oh and of course there's that one video ON MY CHANNEL with in cockpit camera from the Ka-50. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eq1kkvxAsd0