Immigrant and minority communities in Europe, particularly Turks and Muslims, should make an effort to claim their agency in society and move away from the periphery to the center. They should (in fact many of them do) speak the language of their host countries and know something about the cultural traditions and sensitivities of the people with whom they share their lives.

But immigrant and minority communities can do that only with a genuine and authentic identity claim. Asking them to shed themselves of their core values and who they are would only generate a sense of further isolation and alienation. This may be exactly what right-wing European parties and political pundits want. But this is not the way to integrate them.

A prominent German historian, Hans-Ulrich Wehler:
"Islam is not a part of Germany. We participate in the western, Christian-Jewish culture. For centuries, Islam was an enemy of this Europe. Islam did not become part of the culture or the social life of Germany, regardless of whether you look at law, politics or constitutional thought."

He goes on to say:
"The great achievement of the high middle ages was the separation of religious and worldly power. The separation of Church and State is a fundamental fact in the West. This is the opposite of conditions in Muslim countries. We have to defend the advantage of our political culture ferociously."

Will German Muslims, over a couple of generations, become more "German," or will they remain ensconced within immigrant ghettoes?

For one, learning the German language is essential for better communication and interaction between different cultures. If people want to become successful citizens they should obey the law and respect the country's cultural norms.
Multiculturalism only works if you put in a political effort. It does not work if left alone. Immigrants must integrate. That's why it failed - Muslims have a bigger resistance to integrating than any other group.

Basically the multi-cultural approach has led to the formation of a minority that is not accepted as, and often does not wish to be, a part of the larger society. This is certainly not solely, or even largely, the immigrants' fault.
Most of the immigrants in Western-Europe come from Islamic countries, and what's more they come from the poorer, rural, usually more conservative, areas of these countries. This obviously clashes with modern western culture. And this is also were multiculturalism starts becoming delusional. These people simply can not be a succesful part of society without changing those aspects of their culture. It's not possible. It leads to massive problems. Multiculturalism is great, but only up to a point. You can learn and benefit a lot from foreign cultures, but for cultures to succesfully live together, they need to be compatible. They need the same basic outlook on things like human rights, civil liberty etc.

German. I don't care how much of a Turkish accent they have, but German. I don't care how many spelling errors they make, but German. I don't care if their grammar is at the same level as of a 3 year old kid, but German.

Well for starters Germans don't go shouting around like fishwifes pretending they are somehow more important than the people around them. They don't hit their women. They don't keep their women dressed up like a nun. They don't let their kids freaking steal and wreak havoc to the neighbourhood. They respect our system of politics and don't intimidate or attack people whom they not agree with.

Now I'm not saying that every Turk behaves like that, but I sure know more Turks that do than that don't. The Turks who don't behave like that, please let them stay. The Turks that do, get the hell out.

I agree that Papiamento is an exception, because in the end we did conquer the Antilles. But even then, Papiamento (and English) are only official languages in the Antilles. The only official languages in the Netherlands are Dutch and Frisian. Yet while Frisians are expected to speak Dutch, as you won't find any Frisian on official leaflets, the not officially recognised languages of Turkish and Arabic are abundant.

Your argument that leaflets should be available in every officially recognised language is complete moot, because the only official languages of the Netherlands are Dutch and Frisian (and by extension Papiamento and English)

This argument is moot as well as neither Arabic nor Turkish are official EU languages.
I'm sure that if you want a leaflet in Bulgarian or Slovakian or Estonian you'd have a very hard time finding one. While if you want a leaflet in the non-EU-languages of Turkish or Arabic you just have to look and they are there.

Now can you please point out where I used the word "religion" or "Islam"?
That's right - I didn't. This isn't a religious question so please don't make it one.

I can agree with this.
But there are also things that aren't in the law. Being a general ass may be legal, but should we accept it from a foreigner? If you rent someone a room in your house, and that someone turns out to be a complete ass, you throw him out. Why can't we do that with foreigners?

I agree with this. I'm a socialist, and I support social welfare money with all my heart, but you shouldn't get it if you don't do anything for it. If you can work, you should work.

I agree with this.

As Skybird says, they don't see themselves as German. If they speak Turkish and have the Turkish culture, one can question how "German" they actually are.
3rd generation, or 2nd generation for that matter, or even 1st generation Turks that speak German and behave like a German can't be called "guests" as far as I'm concerned. But the people that don't are exactly that.

Quite other way around dont pretend that you know something.
Muslims are trouble here because of their all too fragile religious feelings and archaic blame the world or better Israel for all my trouble mentality which is carefully nursed by religius leaders.
First step to solve a problem is to realize that it exist.

So you are ridiculously trying to claim that each of those groups and their inflow into Israel have not been long running bones of contention within the country?
Next you will be telling me that there havn't been serious issues between Separdi and Askenazi since before the formal creation of the State:doh:

What German? come on you said Germany and all things germanic was a favourite subject of yours, so which German language?

Really??????
wow??????
A nun? thats a christian thing isn't it.
Oh of course you mean the very very small number of women that go for the middle eastern traditional style.
Bloody hell, where were you when all we was hearing was about the thieving ostlanders and their swarming degenerate offspring?
Bugger me sideways, are you serious?????? do you live under a rock?

Oh dear, is this going to be another case of "dutch churches don't ring bells"?
Would you perhaps like to check on the status of the official and regional languages of the Netherlands and their applicability in areas such as literature from government and administration especially as all of those publications would come under the "official leaflets" which you complained about.

Correct, I don't see Cyprus pushing for its language to be recognised anytime soon though I do see Spain recognising Berber and Arabic shortly.

I see you have some interest in Israeli history but have things a little bit twisted.
The issues between sefaradi and ashkenazi Jews existed during 50 to 70 mostly.During and after emigration of Jews from Arab states.
The issues still exist but mostly in orthodox communities while the mix of both is current Israeli culture.
This should be a topic for another thread i guess.and has sothing to do with current thread.

@ Skybird.
I just wanted to point out that the pre-existing problem of Turks "incorporating" into German society is now also influenced by the "West - Islam Conflict(?)". But, to put it blundly, it is now an internal problem of German society. And of course how you solve your problem, is primarily your issue. But because we are talking about Germany here, the solution you will eventually choose will echo all around Europe and influence us all.


.

You surely know the difference between "Germanic" and "German"? Cause if you do you clearly can't read or didn't bother to. I've never said Germany is a favorite subject of mine. I was talking about the old Germanic tribes.
And as for what German, for the umpteenth time I don't care. Low German, High German, one of the countless subdialects, I really don't care. If it's German it's fine (and you surely don't claim that there's no such thing as a German language?)


Is that your whole argument? Not much of an argument at all, is it?

Oh yes, and because some christian extremists wear headscarfs it's immediately a part of German culture:roll:
Very very small number? Then how can you explain that something like half of all Turkish/Arabic women I see wear headscarfs?

Who do you mean with ostlanders? Poles?
Anyways, people should not steal. Immigrants should certainly not steal. No matter where they come from or what religion they adhere to.

Immigrants are generally more criminal. You want statistics? Why don't you try http://www.rtl.nl/%28/actueel/rtlnie...criminelen.xml? To quote from the article (translated): "In 37% of all criminal cases the main suspect is an alien."
Wait, what? 37%?! Aliens by far do not make up 37% of our population.

A rock that is apparently so big that I've seen it on multiple occasions. I've even experienced it myself. My dad is a supporter of Geert Wilders, so right before the elections he had an election poster taped on our window. First some Turkish pricks come knocking on our door demanding my mum to take it down, swearing at her when she refused. Next they come threatening us. A few days later a rock had miraculously made its way through our window at night.

I certainly hope this is going to be another case of "dutch churches don't ring bells" (something I never claimed BTW). Your main argument in that case was basically that somehow my ears were disfunctional. Well, I can assure you they aren't, thank you very much.

Anyway, to get back on the point of languages, legally speaking there isn't any official language here. So legally speaking your argument is even more complete moot than it already was.
In popular usage the Netherlands does have official languages, and neither Turkish nor Arabic are one of them.

So they can speak any of the languages of Germany (or any other european language for that matter) , yet it doesn't matter if no one they are talking to can understand a word they say as that is perfectly acceptable as long as they don't speak one of two other languages
Can you point out how such a requirement could in any way be positive or useful and what possible benefit it could yield?

They are short and to the point, it was the best possible answer to those ridiculous things you wrote.
Though perhaps you fail to understand how ludicrous your two statements were, after all people wouldn't write really silly statements if they realised they were really silly statements would they.

:har::har::har::har:nuns:har::har::har::har:
BTW some parts of the Netherlands still hold on to dutch culture don't they, little distinctive things in some of the fishing villages...like women carrying on the local dutch tradition of keeping the head covered.
Can you explain why immigrants must adapt to dutch culture when the dutch are throwing their culture away, after all you ain't insisting on a return to traditional fashion or for the banning of it for some people in holland so why are you insisting that others do so?

Can you provide an academic study for your claim?
It is easily explained darkfish, its your perception which warps and gives you such views.

You are young ain't you.
They were germans in errrr.....germany.:up: which is why it was a perfect example
Though of course now you hear the same crap said about poles portugese greeks italians bulgarians romanians slovaks......just like you always hear the same crap about every bloody nationality or group since the earliest recorded histories.

Statistics can say many different things and generalities are not a very good thing to go on when you want specifics.
After all going on generalities you end up with stereotypes which are a indication of closed minded bigotry and I know you are not as warped in the mind as skybird so you should be able to avoid that pitfall.
Interesting.
Very interesting.
As you have previously displayed a severe ignorance of your laws and gone out of your way to show that you din't know the difference between a verdict of guilty and not guilty could you perhaps explain in simple terms the meaning of the word..."suspect".

Take a look at German politics. Same crap as you are complaining about.....but done by germans.

No, my arguement was that your perception was warped and you were making sweeping generalisations about specifics while being totally ignorant of the specifics


Oh dear, you manage to take a small step forward then hit a mental block and jump back even further than where you started from.

It seems some Dutch try to be more GERMAN than Germans while defending Dutch idenity or is it all the same?

What the freaking heck are you talking about?

Nice twisting of my words mister. You know perfectly well what I mean.

That's the easiest way of discussing, isn't it? Just state your opponent's claims are false and not provide any evidence for it.
I'm very sorry, but just because you say something is false it doesn't automatically make it false.

"Dutch" tradition? Tradition of one or two places in the bible belt yeah.

Whaddyamean throw our culture away? I just explained to you it isn't part of Dutch culture at all.



Statistics are hard to find, all I could find was this wikipedia page which mentions that 46.9% of all Turkish women wears a headscarf (you're welcome to search for other statistics). Very close to the 50% I mentioned, isn't it? So far for my "warped perception"....

Jeez, of course there are criminal Germans as well. I never denied that. Which is why it is a perfect example for nothing.:roll:

Yes, statistics can often be read in a number of ways. But that doesn't make them false.

So far I haven't seen *you* produce any evidence for your claims. Are you going to? Because if all you can contribute to this discussion is your own opinion that you present as truth, it's not much of a discussion, is it?

Very interesting indeed.

I remember you claimed to be some expert on Dutch law? If so you can surely agree with me that there is a certain principle called "innocent until proven guilty". So until a suspect is convicted it isn't anything more than a suspect, no matter how guilty he is. Because not everyone in these statistics was convicted yet they couldn't call them anything else.

No matter how you look at these statistics, they're different from what you'd expect. These statistics either mean that either lots of immigrants by chance happen to be at the wrong place at the wrong time, the justice system is severely bigoted, or aliens are more criminal. I'd say the latter is most likely.

I'm not talking about German politics, I'm talking about what I have seen in my life. I come from a poor leftist neighbourhood with about a 70% Dutch and 30% Turkish population. I find it rather remarkable that we have only been harassed and threatened by Turks, while there are at least twice as much political opponents of my dad of Dutch heritage.

Yes, my witnessing the Dutch customs everyday makes me totally more ignorant of the specifics than you:yep:

Oh dear, your claim is suddenly not valid anymore so you just start spewing random crap about me jumping back:doh:

I know perfectly well what you mean, and I know that it doesn't really make any sense.

Those two claims were so ludicrous it is self evident that they were complete nonsense.

A Dutch tradition that still existss in a few Dutch places.
So that would be a Dutch tradition as it is a Dutch tradition and its Dutch because its in the Netherlands and the people whose tradition it is are errrrr.....Dutch.

No you didn't, you demonstrated yourself having a mental block again.

Interesting link, did you notice the bit in there about Dutch culture:har::har::har::har:.
As for your statisitics, they are meaningless, you made a claim about Turkish and Arabic women you see, so a statistic about all turkish women means nothing.
Besides which you need to explore the warped perception angle as the simple fact is you notice headscarfs more rather than see them more.

So far I havn't had to as you dig yourself into a hole.

Sorry but you did, which is why it was a perfect example.
You made lots of claims about Turks doing things, added the qualification that of course not all Turks do those things but made the very foolish claim that Germans don't do those things:doh:

Why do you have to lie? I said you appeared to know bugger all about the dutch laws at issue and you proved me correct by not even being able to understand the law or even identify the correct branch of laws even thogh your fathers summons and specific charge was on the link.

Excuse me, you claimed a verdict of guilty was really a not guilty verdict.

Well done.
Now see if you can understand how those figures are reached?
After all a reported suspect only means one thing:know:


Not at all, if anything I would have expected them to be higher, as I said above, they only mean one thing.

Sorry, your claim was that Germans don't do that sort of thing.
See what I mean about digging yourself into a hole.

It certainly did, all you had to do was look and think but you simply wouldn't as to do so would have demolished your own claims.

Do you even realise what you had written and what it related to that you had previously written?

Stances in this thread reminds me of "all Germans are Nazis" blames.

I had two basic experiences with Turks.

One in school, where I got bullied regularly on my way home through a Turkish quarter. Kinda left a bad impression

Second at work, where the two Turks we had were as cool and geeky as the rest of us. Cool guys, highly creative and more work ethics then most Germans in their 30ies growing up in liberal lala land 80ies. Left some highly positive impressions. Unluckily the latter two by now moved out of the country for various reasons. Constant bad tasted jokes and comparisons to the first group mentioned here amongst them. It went as far that those two guys adopted the stereotypes, so much ppl expected them to be this way anyways. Nothing radical, just a constant reminder that they were different, even if they were not.

What does this tell us, and what conclusions can be drawn here?

P.S. Remarks that some political parties want to get rid of Germany are a bad joke and show more ideological confrontation then objectivity. Even "die Linke" is comfortable with Germany these days. Would be better if they actually weren't just to get a bit more variety into politics instead of this huge big conformist mud.

P.P.S. I can trace my family roots back to the 15th century, when my folks came into Germany from the Austrian parts of the Holy Roman Empire. It's getting blurry before that. Throw in some Habsburg bastard blood and it is as German as you can get. Can't offer blue eyes nor blonde hair, though. Can't exactly say I can appreciate historic late comer Prussia defining what Germans have to look and behave like. On top of it, I seriously can't stand a couple typically german traits. It's the 21th century, for gods sake, and just because there is some economic crisis and the typical radicalization coming with such times there is no reason to throw understanding and common sense out of the window for the sake of simple/convenient conclusions.

The most obvious and the most telling explains why 2nd 3rd or 4th generation descendants of immigrants sometimes behave like they do.
Their parents fitted in, worked like hell, adapted to their new surroundings and tried to better themselves, but still got treated on a regular basis like excrement.
How on earth would someone expect a positive reaction from native born descendants of immigrants when they and their parents are still treated as dumb thieving foriegn scum by ignorant bigots who only deal in stupid meaningless stereotypes.


Well said.
Common sense does tend to go out the window very easily.

A bit overblown. It's way more subtle, in reality.

I always had a problem with the argument that Islamic folks are incompatible with western values. That arguments gets blown out of the water by recognizing that the second generation of turkish immigrants actually did their best to integrate, and only parts of the latter generations went back to radicalization. Something must have happened there and I have a problem of blaming this development only on immigrants children. Integration always is a two way street, those that need to make the effort to integrate (Do not get me wrong, that requirement is there. Learning German and adopting the values is a precondition for integration) and those that actually appreciate and honor that effort. Both is rather missing in many circles of German society today. What came first is a matter of debate, but cause and effect always is there.

It may also have to do with the fact that Germans showed a distinct lack of national pride in the past. That has changed profoundly the last 5 years or so, but that is too short a time span to make an impact to today's problems. Who wants to join a Nation that is defined by shame and self flagellation, after all?
And who do you want to blame for this problem? IMHO the issue is way more complex then ppl wish it to be, and lacks an honest attempt to analyze and find solutions.

Then again, and given that the word "race" has had a big comeback lately even in German mainstream media I wonder how much of old attitudes just lay dormant under a big pile of PC. Germany certainly has not developed more enlightend over the last 2 decades. Maybe reunification brought back some viewpoints that were never addressed in the former East Germany. That may also have to do with the fact that especially eastern Germany, with the lowest numbers of immigrants in all of Germany, is the most xenophobic one as well. Odd, if you think about it, but the liberal and future orientated achievements of the old BRD is currently getting replaced by more general 30ies attitudes (before the Nazis came to power). That one most certainly has to do with reunification and a need to find common ground, and Weimar is the last time Germans in one country could be comfortable with themselves. This development is understandable and to be expected in such a situation, but is subtle and lacks active debate, it just happens without anybody really realizing. The huge and sudden burst of anti EU and Euro sentiments also point in that direction. Most of these attitudes are only superficially based on facts and objectivity, most is based on raw and unreflected emotions.

P.S. I just remembered another observation. In the company I worked for, I had a long debate with a guy of italian/polish background. He came to Germany at the age of 5, speaks perfect german, blonde hair, blue eyes, christian background, also lots of work ethics. At the age of 24 he already got into a meeting with Electronic Arts about a project he envisioned. He could be considered the perfect immigrant. Yet even he considers himself almost radically polish and wants to move back soon. Apparently he faced the same problems many turks experienced in their childhood, mockery for his background. This debate started a thought process that got me to today's conclusions. What folks experience in their childhood obviously has a profound effect on their world views in later ages and expecting them to behave rational would require to be rational oneself, first.

The Turks make good kebabs,