SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Pledge of Allegiance vs. Constitution?

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46. Which countries were our enemies during World War II?
Germany, Italy, and Japan
I would mark this as an Incomplete answer... ;)

It is incomplete, but I think they meant Axis powers in general

78. What kind of government does the United States have?
Democracy
I thought we were a republic? :hmmm:

So did I...

I did the test without preparing for it, and except answers on present, contemporary names (I do not know all senators of states by name) that I could not know from here - why should I - I got it right. But:

that test is hilarious. It is even more stupid than the German integration test for foreign migrants that was introduced some time ago over here. And like then german test it fails its purpose because beside answers for questions on colours and numbers of stars it is all too easy to guess what answer they want to hear. and I would not even agree on all answers being correct. It has no educational and also no identificational value, therefore.

Or maybe the test is not to be called dumb, but incredibly naive.

I missed four of them. But the test itself gets some wrong. Yes, it's poorly written as well as being stupid.

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Originally Posted by conus00

Pledge of Allegiance vs. Constitution?

Constitution in a 12 round decision. :)

The Pledge: extracting loyalty oaths from six year-olds since 1892. I had to recite it every damn school day for 12 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

1) It is not a criminal act to refuse to recite the pledge...

By that reasoning, school-led prayer should be constitutional, because there's no legal requirement to partake in it. But it is unconstitutional, because it boils down to the government promoting religion, regardless of the presence or lack of any requirements to partake in the prayer. Likewise, the Pledge is unconstitutional.

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nor is the pledge mandated anywhere outside some very specific state laws.

What happened to the Equal Protection Clause?

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you are pledging allegiance to a nation that is under God.

So it's ok to force kids to state that there is a god, and that their own country exists under it? Wouldn't you (rightly) have a problem with the phrase "...one nation, unfettered by all imaginary gods..."?

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In these cases, people aren't so much against the pledge itself as they are against supporting what they see as a meme to propagate beliefs they oppose.

Or they'd just like to see the states obey the law of the land for once. I don't think that's a lot to ask.

When the balance of the Supreme Court swings back, maybe laws requiring the current Pledge will finally be struck down.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AngusJS (Post 1465619)

Constitution in a 12 round decision. :)

Hehehe. I was thinking something like that every time I read the title, but decided not to use it. My line was 'Pledge of Allegiance by 3.'

Quote:

Originally Posted by conus00 (Post 1465292)

78. What kind of government does the United States have?
Democracy
I thought we were a republic? :hmmm:

So did I...

I always thought it was a constitutional republic with a bicameral legislature and indirect democracy.

The pledge is not unconstitutional. God as used is not a specified deity, and thus does not violate the establishment of any religion. To some, the "God" in the pledge may be a judeao-xtian one, to others it may be the spagetti monster. To an athiest, "God" may be a non existent entity - so in that case they are saying "under a being that doesn't exist" - which conforms to their belief - so why should they have a problem with that?

There is a difference between the recognition of a myriad of beliefs and a note to that in the pledge, vs the establishment of a set governmental religion.

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Originally Posted by AngusJS (Post 1465619)

Very well said! :rock:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

There is a difference between the recognition of a myriad of beliefs and a note to that in the pledge, vs the establishment of a set governmental religion.

President Eisenhower disagrees. When he signed it into law he said "From this day forward, the millions of our school children will daily proclaim in every city and town, every village and rural schoolhouse, the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty."[/quote]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critici..._of_Allegiance

The "under God" part was added at the exact time that "Godless Communist" was the favored epithet of those most concerned with the Cold War. If that isn't obvious, the fact that "God" is capitalized in the official version should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by conus00 (Post 1465292)

78. What kind of government does the United States have?
Democracy
I thought we were a republic? :hmmm:

So did I...

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 1465773)

I always thought it was a constitutional republic with a bicameral legislature and indirect democracy.

Quote:

WOMAN: I thought we were an autonomous
collective.
DENNIS: You're fooling yourself. We're living in a dictatorship.
A self-perpetuating autocracy in which the working classes--
WOMAN: Oh there you go, bringing class into it again.
DENNIS: That's what it's all about if only people would--
ARTHUR: Please, please good people. I am in haste. Who lives
in that castle?
WOMAN: No one live there.
ARTHUR: Then who is your lord?
WOMAN: We don't have a lord.
ARTHUR: What?
DENNIS: I told you. We're an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take
it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week.
ARTHUR: Yes.
DENNIS: But all the decision of that officer have to be ratified
at a special biweekly meeting.
ARTHUR: Yes, I see.
DENNIS: By a simple majority in the case of purely internal affairs,--
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: --but by a two-thirds majority in the case of more--
ARTHUR: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
WOMAN: Order, eh -- who does he think he is?
ARTHUR: I am your king!
WOMAN: Well, I didn't vote for you.
ARTHUR: You don't vote for kings.
WOMAN: Well, 'ow did you become king then?
ARTHUR: The Lady of the Lake,
[angels sing]
her arm clad in the purest shimmering samite, held aloft Excalibur
from the bosom of the water signifying by Divine Providence that I,
Arthur, was to carry Excalibur.
[singing stops]
That is why I am your king!
DENNIS: Listen -- strange women lying in ponds distributing swords
is no basis for a system of government. Supreme executive power
derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical
aquatic ceremony.
ARTHUR: Be quiet!
DENNIS: Well you can't expect to wield supreme executive power
just 'cause some watery tart threw a sword at you!
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: I mean, if I went around sayin' I was an empereror just
because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me they'd
put me away!
ARTHUR: Shut up! Will you shut up!
DENNIS: Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
ARTHUR: Shut up!
DENNIS: Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
HELP! HELP! I'm being repressed!

Can't go wrong with the classics :yeah:

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Originally Posted by Platapus (Post 1466031)

Can't go wrong with the classics :yeah:

:rotfl2: I love that bit.

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Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo (Post 1465785)

I am having a hard time believing that

Louis Bowman
The Daughters of the American Revolution
The Sons of the American Revolution
The Knights of Columbus
Holger Christian Langmack
Dr. George MacPherson Docherty of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church

All intended the word god to represent all religions and not just the christian religion. :nope:

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo (Post 1465785)

God as used is not a specified deity, and thus does not violate the establishment of any religion. To some, the "God" in the pledge may be a judeao-xtian one, to others it may be the spagetti monster.

that simply is wrong. If god is written with a small "g", then it is liike you say, refering to the class of deities, gods and djinnis altogether. If it is written with capital "G", then it explicitly is refering to the christian context of that assumed entity. Think of it as a convention (that is not disputed at all), if you want.

That'S why I use small and capital Gs carefully when using that word. ;)

(Not that it matters at all. One god is not less worse than any other :O: ).