http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lsf8Ovsja9k

Also see http://silenthunteriii.com/uk/videos.php

WRONG. There's a BIG difference in playing a submarine simulation as a weapon of war in and of itself. And things like imagery that gloriy the 3rd reich.

There are several things wrong with the imagery in that picture.

1.) The emphasis on the flags in the background. Three of them for christ sakes. Having removed the swaztika means jack, we all know what it is.

2.) The reich eagle in the foreground. Having removed the swaztika from it's talons means jack. We all know what it is.

3.) The uboat is sandwiched between the two, being wrapped in the symbolism of an ideology.

4.) The context of the message smacks of negationism

5.) The composition, and theme of the overall picture is a carbon copy of Nazi propaganda posters. Google image search that and you'll see simularities

6.) The flowery rose petals shower, indicating heroic" and triumphant over the existing symbolism. Kinda like a roman parade you see in the movies.

But isn't that image part of the subsim? :doh:

Context. Context is everything. The context in that one end screen is exactly as i described it in my last post, and it's all bad.

Well yeah exactly. The context of that image is that you're a German U-boat kaleun who just finished a successful campaign for The Fatherland. It's part of the game.

:nope:

I love it when people are so wrapped up in Uboat romance they lose historical perspective through rose tinted glasses. Go ahead and lay glory and approbation to the 3rd reich if that's your thing, personally I just wanted a submarine simulation. No flowery imagery required for that.

Sorry Ducimus, I always thought of myself as very sensitive to racism and antisemitism, but I'm not seeing what you are in that image. Its context is part of the sim, in my eyes.
I think I'll just leave it at that.

Doesn't this slide contradict the next one you say shows up with the 'u-boat campaign fails'? It's a bit pointless to praise the U-boat campaign one minute and your actions and then the next talk about how the campaign fails. The last two slides in particular seem rushed and seem almost to be there just to 'show' that the game isn't promoting Nazi triumphalism with their 'BUT in the end Germany loses' bit, which is obvious anyway.

Sorry Dulcimus but I think point 5 and 6 are enough to Justify the use of such an image. Have you seen some propaganda images of uboot returng home? It's prefectly fit that your successful sub is depicted in such a way because that's what it would have been done in RL.

Most soldiers fight wars they did not choose to wage but, by playing the role of an uboot commander, you're doing the bidding of the German political class of the time, like it or not. That means the nazi party.

This argument is a little strange to say the least and I am struggling to fathom out the arguments.

In the first instance we are playing a simulator that represents basically the murder of innocents by a fascist regime but yet people are complaining that it glorifies the Nazi state, that is irony at its best.
It is important that games like this are framed in an historical context and that means including in the game why the U-Boats were there after all.

I would think National Socialism is abhorrent to pretty much everyone who plays and enjoys this game as well as the contributors of this forum but nevertheless, it was a fact. Freedom of expression and the fight to maintain that freedom was the reason that so many people died; to dismiss imagery and blatant facts as racsist and then try to ban them for that reason goes against everything people fought for.

If the lessons of history are forgotten then they will repeats themselves over and over again.

I understand the point that the last screen I posted blatantly glorifies Nazi Germany but it is set in an historical context, it is not promoting National Socialism at all. To a lesser extent, in SHIII the band playing at the quayside could be considered to be glorifying the boats march to war or much of the dialogue conducted with the flotilla chief in SHV could be considered the same.

The bigger issue here is the fact that Nazi symbolism is banned in many European countries, frankly that is their affair, in England it is not illegal say or display anything which would interfere with freedom of expression short of inciting racial hatred. Quite frankly the Nazi's and for that matter the communists were scum, most totalitarian regimes are. They murder and butcher innocents for their own twisted ideals but the reason we fight is so people can say what they please, so they can be free to choose.

I may not agree with what you say but I will defend with my life you're right to say it

That's bad. I can accept the fact that the campaign ends in '43, but right in the middle of a patrol? I hope that can be patched/modded out.

Many Thanks for that. Jurgen Oesten seems a very nice guy, excellent English and can spin a ripping yarn!!



Another nice interview is this one with Erich Topp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYlk0YUaxPU&NR=1

With reference to the two pictures in your first post.....pretty accurate and believable http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...ies/pirate.gif

Ducimus, try and look at it this way... no one should be hiding what the uboats were or who the Kriegsmarine/German Military was lead by.

Duc...I understand where you are coming from. But lets not be overly sensitive and read something into this thats not there. I do agree there is no need for the swastika as it was a symbol of evil.

But those end photos conjure up the words in Adm. Doenitz book "ten years and twenty days" where he said the KM and all common soliders and sailors fought for thier country with pride". Adm. Nimitz then also backed Doenitz as he tesitfied for him at the Nuremburg War Trials and said "the uboat arm did nothing more then we did in the pacific".

Should we Americans feel shame in what we did to Japanesse merchantmen? Sailors who where just doing a job? No we shouldnt glorify it (and making a game about it borders on glorification)... But in fact playing all the SH seires actually made me reflect on ALL the sailors/submariners and the sacrafice they gave, and the pride they felt for what they were doing, no matter what flag they flew under.

NOTE I also agree with you that if someone is loosing "jollies" over the lack of a swastikz...then they need thier head examined.