SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Things that bother me about "Iron Coffins"

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- - Things that bother me about "Iron Coffins" (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=167387)

It's hard for me to follow this, are you guys talking about http://www.uboat.net/boats/u557.htm ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subnuts (Post 1353017)

A few months ago, Neal asked me to write a review of Iron Coffins for the next almanac. As I'm not supposed to actually post the actual review on this forum, I thought I'd bring up some of the..."issues"...I have with Iron Coffins. In my view, this book is painfully overrated, factually dishonest, and shouldn't occupy the elevated position it holds in the U-boat "canon." So, here's a quick laundry list:

It's ridiculously high standing. Iron COffins is often thought of as a crowning masterpiece in the genre of submarine literature, the definitive account of life on a German U-boat, and a 100% factual account. Hasn't anyone ever heard of looking into secondary sources? I can study translated plans of U-570, read through Donitz's war diary, and examine the results of every convoy battle, all without having to fly to Germany and dig through old records.

The amount of blatant fabrication contained within. Werner has U-557 sinking seven ships on her first patrol, when only one was sunk in reality. He then has her sinking six ships on her third patrol, when again, only one was sunk. He then has U-230 attacking Convoy HX-229/SC-122, sinking seven ships of the 22 in total sunk from the two convoys. However, the boat never got close enough to either convoy to fire a single torpedo or shell at it! Finally, he describes attacking a convoy in January, 1945 near England, observing three distinct torpedo strikes. Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.

Werner's depiction of the Allied ASW effort. Based on Iron Coffins, Werner survived hundreds of aerial attacks, and several 30-hour long depth charge barrages. He's so lucky, though, that the Allies never used air-dropping homing torpedoes, Hedgehogs, sonobuoys, or hunter-killer groups against him. Considering the Allies has turned anti-submarine warfare into an artform by war's end, I find this hard to believe.

Werner's depiction of himself. He's a stereotypical "Good German" who happens to be politically neutral, has no opinion of the Nazis, stands up against the Gestapo when his father is arrested, and has only the classiest of affairs with French prost...I mean, ladies. Everything that goes wrong is someone else's fault, even when his boat gets sunk in harbor. He shoots down a plane single-handedly with an ancient machine gun and ends up in the French foreign legion. Seriously?

The reactions of U-boat veterans to the book has been glossed over. Jurgen Rohwer said that if one were to underline all of the errors in this book in red, it would look like a blood bath. The Association of German Submariners called it a "hack work totally without foundation." Iron Coffins was just as controversial as Das Boot when it came out, but people accept Herbert Werner more readily then they would Lothar-Gunther Buchheim. Why ignore these very real criticisms?

Werner's overall attitude. He wants us to pause and reflect on how horrible war is while embellishing on his wartime experiences. He writes a grim anti-war story while including exciting fabricated battle scenes to spice up the narrative and make it more palatable. I find this whole attitude condescending at best, and intellectually dishonest at worst.

Okay, you can all hate me now.

okay okay - i hate you now!!:DL

(...i loved the book and Das Boot...
...but i think Operation Drumbeat is up there on the top)

Wow! This thread, you people! FANTASTIC! You're all so well read and knowledgeable! Such great repartee, "snappy patter!" I AM ENJOYING THIS IMMENSELY - and frantically taking notes!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcarlsonus (Post 1353735)

Wow! This thread, you people! FANTASTIC! You're all so well read and knowledgeable! Such great repartee, "snappy patter!" I AM ENJOYING THIS IMMENSELY - and frantically taking notes!

Go ahead - tell Subnuts you hate him - throw some more fuel on the fire...:O:

(...if you think this is bad check out some of the threads on SH5!!!)

Yeah Im with you - Iron Coffins is a good read, but like Das Boot -its best swallowed with a pinch of salt or three.
Das Boot and Iron Coffins should be enjoyed by any self respecting Uboat / Sub enthusiast ,but for enterainment purposes only.
They should not be QFT in many respects!

If you want facts - stick to the history books which are written based on mutilple sources of infomation, not just the account of one guy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by flag4 (Post 1353753)

Go ahead - tell Subnuts you hate him - throw some more fuel on the fire...:O:

(...if you think this is bad check out some of the threads on SH5!!!)

Subnuts, I hate you - but that's because I'm in denial...

I've checked and contributed to the threads on SH5 which is the reason, as mentioned in my first post, I'm "universally hated" in this Forum!

Check out 'Shooting the War' by Otto Giese. Best Primary/First-Hand account on life aboard a U-Boot that I have ever read.

you could say that about the SH series...they are not fact but based on some kind of fact and hugely enjoyable.

those two books are cracking reads - i would love to have read them as a boy, side light on late at night in bed.

i found Das Boot very atmospheric, claustrophobic - its a shame his other novels are not translated.

Iron Coffins left me feeling sad for the whole thing - the sheer waste of men and machinery, the folly.

both men are very good writers and i take my hat off to them for what they have produced.

i believe Clay Blair's The Hunters ( which i started reading but put down) got criticisms because of his 'Over Americanisation-Interpretation' of that particular history: A History Book!

thats what i want from a story - feeling. i can go to the history books for the truth and Operation Drumbeat combined the two brilliantly - i did not want it to end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Subnuts (Post 1353017)

Official records fail to credit him with sinking or damaging a single ship during his career as a U-boat captain.

I see that!

http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/u415.html
http://www.uboat.net/boats/patrols/u953.html

Or just go right to his bio: http://www.uboat.net/men/werner_herbert.htm

No Subnuts, I don't hate you! You are the Fox Mulder of the subsim set...
"The truth is out there."

Having read a book or five about u-boats before I read this one, I didn't find it all that impressive. The problem is, that for many, this was their "introduction" to u-boats and the take what is written in it to be the gospel.

This is a situation similar to Mitsuo Fuchida, although he has been discredited in Japan for many years, because of his work with Gordon Prange, he is still taken as gospel in America regarding his story.

There was SOMETHING I read years ago quoting verbatim from the diary of a Japanese submariner in WW1 that he'd kept current even as he died in that sub due to being unable to surface and, at that time, having no escape trunk. A primitive boat, it used a conventional gasoline engine for surface travel and, as he wrote, he was being overcome by gasoline fumes. Sad, but very interesting!

What WAS that? Does anyone know? Was it just a PART of a larger submarine-themed book?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcarlsonus (Post 1353921)

I dug up a passage about this from The Navy Times Book Of Submarines:

Quote:

In April 1910, one of Holland's Kobe-built submarines -Japanese No. 6- sank in sixty feet of water, without hope of rescue. No. 6 had been running submerged using the gasoline engine, taking suction through a primitive version of the "schnorkel," when waves washed over the open end, the float valve did not close, and water flowed into the boat. Commanding Officer Lieutenant Sakuma kept a running log of the almost three hours that he and his fellow crew members awaited the inevitable. "Words of apology fail me for having sunk His Majesty's Submarine No. 6," he wrote. "My subordinates are killed by my fault, but it is with pride that I inform you that the crew to a man have discharged their duties as sailors should with the utmost coolness until their dying moments."

He asked that this accident not be held against Japan's adoption of submarines, urged the Emperor to continue the search for the ideal boat, said farewell to friends and relatives, and closed the log: "My breathing is so difficult and painful. It is now 12:40 pm."

^^ I just got quite a chill reading that Subnuts.

Poor devil what a horrible way to die.

That's it, subnuts! THANKS !!! I no longer hate you whether in denial or not!

reiterating here, but RE-worthy of notice: FASCINATING THREAD !!!