Find me an SUV that gets under 15MPG. What, maybe the Hummer? How many soccer moms got Hummers? My old mini van got over 25 MPG. Get over yourself. Christ, my wife's Mountaineer gets 18 in the city and 22 on the highway. I'm sure your mom and dad just love jamming the trunk with beach crap for vacation. 10-1 that damn old sedan got worse gas mileage than the SUV today and certainly belched out more CO2 than todays motors. Damn, the friggin Chevy Chevette had worse emissions than todays 8 cylinders.

In the spirit of global warming and to show my support for more green, I had a new paint job done on my car. :yeah:

http://www.change.org/photos/wordpre...green-fail.jpg

I ask SUV drivers what MPG they get all the time. under 15 is normal. And no the sedan got 20-30 MPG depending on driving. And there is only so much carbon in gas so I highly doubt it put out more.

Most efficient and least efficient:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/bestworstEPAtrucks.htm

Note, the big arse Toyota Titan and pick up trucks. Soccer mom does not drive pick up trucks. Lets go after the CONSTRUCTION WORKERS :yeah:

Zack:

Combined 20 MPG SUV's:

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/byMPG.htm

Hit the scroll down list for SUV and 20 miles per gallon combined. It is beating the old family sedan.

BS. The amount of unburned gas/carbon is the problem. The old carborator is so inefficient compared to injection. The optimal mixture is 14:1. That mixture of fuel to O2 will provide the most complete burn. Carborators can not do that very well. Injection does it beautifully. EGR valves were improved as well as convertors as part of the exhaust. Computer controls that were programmed for mass air pressure, mass airflow, O2 sensors in the exhaust all combined to reducing the emissions 100 fold compared to old carboratored 4 cylinders. At any rate, just what sedan was getting 20-30? BTW, check the links I provide above. Dear old mom and the SUV is getting about the same. But you know what, she has plenty of room for bags, kids, groceries and that trip to the hardware store were she needs 10 foot 2x4 for her new construction project. :O:

One thing I find ironic about these discussions on environmentalism, corporatism, capitalism, socialism, etc. is that a lot of this stuff has already happened historically. We just never seem to learn the lessons.

For example, the industrial revolution of Europe (particularly England) is a text book case of what happens when unregulated capitalism is allowed to run rampant in a country. You think things are bad now, you should read what was going on at the height of that period. It is also the perfect example of why capitalism needs to be controlled and supervised, preferably by a neutral party.

The same can be said of unrestrained socialism, as such systems can go to far, create unbalance and excessive corruption.

In my view both are useful and needed in the right amounts, but highly destructive if either is allowed out of containment. One needs to balance out the needs and wants of the individual, vs the needs and wants of the group, vs the greater good of everything (including nature & environment).


On a slightly different subject. I think we as a species need to drop this concept of unending growth (economic or otherwise). Such a concept is fallacious and dangerous. Resources are finite, space on the planet is finite, the ability for the planet to support us is finite (yes that number can change, but there is a final maximum limit even if we can't calculate it). I think a better goal would be stability, rather then these unending up and down surges. I could write a lot more on this subject but I'll save it for another time.


I also think we really need to strip politics from the environmental debate if we are ever going to have any hope of solving the problems. Its not about politics, or political leanings, or hippies or anything. Its about what is happening to our world, why it is happening, how we are responsible, and what will happen if we don't do anything. There is a veritable mountain of generally scientifically valid evidence, that we are heading for major problems that will eventually have a catastrophic effect on us, and all else that we share the planet with. Pretending it doesn't exist, or challenging it with pseudo-scientific studies, or blaming nature, or praying to a god won't make it go away. There is a great deal of compelling evidence that we are mostly responsible for this mess, you can even see it with your own eyes if you look past your own back yard into what is happening across the globe. What is needed is rational, objective, and unbiased thought about the problem, followed by action.


Sometimes I look around me and I don't know if i should laugh or cry hysterically at what surrounds me.

Neon - as has been said a few times...

The surest proof of intelligent life in the galaxy - is that it hasn't visited us.

We have the technologies right now to make the earth more sustainable. We have had the resources to feed the world. Yet we do not use them. History shows that either nature will put us back in our place as a species, we will do it to ourselves, OR we will find a way to reach out and explore/exploit other areas of resources and living room. Ultimately, that will mean some form of space travel for the third option.

Zach, the price of oil will determine what people drive, not politcal correctness. If oil becomes so scarce that it hits $5 a gallon here, you won't need to rely on totalitarian measure like outlawing SUVs, people will desert them in droves.

As for mandating what people should drive, have you mentioned what car you drive, and how many kids you have? Personally, I think all cars should be outlawed unless they have 3+ occupants at all times. No cars on the road with one or two people.

Only motorcycles :shucks:

Absolutely. The Mercury Mountaineer we purchased was just turned in during the gas price hike of $4.00+ per gallon. The dealer practically gave us the truck. Other dealers were just taking the SUV's to the auction because they were not selling. What made me purchase this Mercury was the V6 and it is only two wheel drive. My wife will never pull a boat or travel trailer. No sense getting the V8. She will never go in the dirt or drive in the snow. No sense getting 4 wheel drive. However, we get about 23 mpg on the highway and seat 7. Sure beats having 3-4 cars going to the same place when all could just take a ride in the truck. :03: Hows that for getting good gas mileage? Hell, the way I see it the truck saves more gas than burns by just pull 1-2 vehicles off the road as these folks are riding with us.

That may work in Texas but not any place with cold weather or snow. Really need an enclosed 4 wheel vehicle for that kind of weather unless you have a death wish/like freezing your butt off.

But in principle I agree with the sentiment.

Riding in the snow is fun.

If your worried about laying it down, then use a trike instead.

As for the cold, use a heat suit. You get on, plug in, and get warm. The things will get you downright TOASTY if you get a good one.

It would be great if everyone just rode, but unfortunately there would be WAY too many accidents as most of the people on the road NEED a big metal box around them to give them a chance at survival from their own stupidity given the way they "drive".

If you really wanted to solve the issue of a petroleum driven economy, you won't have success "outlawing" anything. Thats nearly as comical and useless as trying to use a punaitive tax to modify societal behavior. Instead, look at WHY we are a petroleum driven economy, and start working to make those factors less important.

For example - what is the biggest reason cars are on the road? Its people going to and from work. This also is what creates the logjams every morning and evening at 8 and 5..... where people sit and idle for an hour on their way, or 4 hours if your in NY.

While societal taxes don't work, business taxes (and tax breaks) do work. So offer companies tax credits for every worker they have that works from home. It doesn't have to be much - say $250 per worker. Watch how many "office" jobs can be home sourced! It saves the environment, reduces the dependance on petroleum, and also has an added social benefit in that it would allow families more time to spend together.

Sure, some jobs CANT be done via technology, not to mention trucks still have to deliver goods, etc. But there you can look at an older, yet VERY green technology.... RAILROADS - to help remove some of the demand in a very ecological responsible way.

Simple steps that would benefit everyone, in real, tangible ways. But there is no movement to use anything like that. Why? Because the powers that be really don't want to see us off petroleum. Regardless of the letter by the name, each has an interest in maintaining the status quo.

Well I still wouldn't take a bike out on the highway here in the middle of February with snow and ice with -20c to -35c + wind chill temperatures. It can be hard enough sometimes keeping a vehicle with 4 wheels on the road (even in the city). Like I said not really a practical solution for here, but concepts like the 3 wheel motorcycle 'cars' may work with fully enclosed cockpits.

http://www.glenbow.org/images/img-co...rppl-hig-3.jpg