Oh... you kid, good sir.

A German victory after 1940 was impossible. Perhaps if Germany managed to invade Britain, it may have been within grasp, but not after Moscow. It would hardly have mattered if their industrial output was better, since the weight of three gigantic nations and their combined output would outmatch it completely.

i would be so bold as to say german victory was still a possiblity until later 1941

if it werent for the bumbling of a certian austrian corporal

a few critical mistakes...

halting guderians panzers at dunkerque when they should have thrown an all out land,air and naval assault at the stranded britsh expeditionary force

resorting to terror bombing london instead of concentrating on RAF installations just when they bombings were starting to make headway they should have pounded the RAF into ashs whilst it ws still on the ground

total lack of commitment to the north african campaign(argueably the biggest missed oportunity of the war) the british were critically weak here Hitler should have listened to Rommel and Raeder's urgings to gain full control of the medditerranen and force the british to abandon gibralter. if rommel(a brillant leader if therre ever was) was given the forces he required he could have easily rolled over british egypt, gained control of the suez and drove on into iraq and turkey thus threatening the oil fields of the caucus without so much as a declaration of war against russia.

Rommel really was that good and the British really were that weak in north africa such a campaign could have easily been undertaken had Hitler listened and given his full support instead of pursueing a foolish self destructive war of attrition against russia

I don't see how the German navy could have forced the British from gibraltar, seeing as how they would have to get through either Scapa or the channel to get there. The Italians obviously couldn't toss them out either.

Dunkirk was before Moscow, and even if they had destroyed the RAF, there would still be significant doubt on Sealion's success.

Also, the British certainly weren't "weak" in North Africa. If anything, it was lacklustre command that saw their defeats, but there eventually will be a point when Rommel would have lost too many units, as well as having an extended supply line for replacements.

they could force the british out of gibralter via constant bombing from bases in north africa same way the british forced gneisnau and friends out of france

seeing as rommel was almost constantly outnumbered in north africa by the british and yet he drove them back to the egyptian frontier with relative ease

yes supplys were a problem due to RN units based in malta but this could have been alliviated as well they should have taken malta in the same stroke as crete

Rommel himself in out of fustration of the few units he was receiving being thinned further due to loses even offered to take malta himself:rotfl:

malta was by no means an impentrable fortress the germans just never made a concentrated effort to take it instead of revaluating paratroops after crete they simply ceased these operations all togther thus denying themselves the means to take malta

With what North African air bases? Vichy France was not German that way... And the luftwaffe was hard-pressed in Britain and Russia. Gneisau and Scharnhorst were forced out at a time when Germany no longer had any semblance to air superiority

nonetheless with most of the mediterranean coast under german, italian or puppet state control the british postion in gibralter would be severly weakened

and if the germans really wanted they could simply strong arm the vichy in granting bases in north africa the vichy werent exactly in a postion to deny the germans


and you know your history well sir:arrgh!:


also i should point out that this scenario takes place with germany having not declared war on russia which was the logical thing to do stalin was much to paranoid to make the first move against germany

The problem with historical discussions is, dealing with the what-ifs always turn into almost absurd twists. Not invading Russia would mean that 4 army-groups could be unleashed on Britain, and Britain would just lose. But thinking for a moment, one realizes that you could argue that if the US had sent its entire army to Britain, it would be an even fight. Then, you would argue that the US could do that if Japan hadn't attacked. By then, one reaches the point where they are no longer arguing about possibilities, but outmatching each other's fantasies.

As for you, goggles, I have nothing against you or this discussion, but I don't believe I have the energy to continue it. Let us just end with the agreement that Hitler taking over on the strategic level spelled defeat for Germany.


How 'bout it?

I have to agree with Very Super Market. It becomes almost impossible to calculate where the war goes when a different path is taken because of all the variables that never came up. Based on their reluctance to fight to defend Czechoslovakia, Hitler didn't even think France and Britain would go to war over his invasion of Poland, so you can see the miscalculations and errors started from the very beginning. ;)

i heartily agree super market:arrgh!:

in conclusion the german military machine was excellent on the tatical level but a failure strategically due to the interference of Hitler

Well the SAS wouldn't have to be parachuted into enemy territory, they could have been sent in by boat to the Dutch or Danish coast dressed in civilan clothes or German uniforms and make their way to the target zone as seperate units and then infultrate the local populis or garrison. Then after some time infultrate the target, sent charges, and exfultrate and then make their way to the coast to be picked up. Yeah I do realize it sound far fetched but who knows it could have worked, not a bad idea for a book though:hmmm: .

Ah, romantic military fiction!

There are a few slight problems with the idea.

The SAS wasn't formed until late 1941, and they were a unit organised in North Africa for operation in North Africa. Originally, air drop was their method of deployment, and it did not work very well. Later they switched to primarily vehicle-based approaches. They eventually operated in Sicily, Italy and Northwest Europe, but always at the operational, not strategic level.

They did have a few German speakers in the unit, but not enough of the men were fluent for them to pass in a major cross-country trip like what would be required to attack the factory in question.

The quantity of explosives necessary to destroy the factory would require vehicle transport, and there was no way the SAS could have got a vehicle into Germany, or the explosives without a vechicle, before late 1944.

The only practical way to destroy the factory would be the same as was used for other strategic targets: bombing by aircraft. And has been pointed out, to do that, they would have to know where the factory was, and would have to have known that production was concentrated at the one location.

Spain was in middle of civil war & remain neutral, Hitler could have saw it as good opportunity to attack & take over instead of that Operation Barbarossa. Hitler's one of his typical saying, "We have to be ruthless." I guess he wasn't that cruel enough to conqueror Spain just to get Brits out of Gibraltar. Comparing to Operation Barbarossa, Spain should have be much easier, after all wasn't Spain more of leaning to Allied than Axis?

No, wrong. Spain was under Franco's rule right now, and he was also a fascist. Germany even lent his forces support during the civil war. I strongly suggest you patch up you history. Germany isn't a land full of soldiers, and Spain had an experienced army, with German weapons, no less. If they were to invade, the Germans would surely win eventually, but at what cost? The men needed to conquer Spain would be sorely missed in Russia, or North Africa, and resistance would spring up even more with less garrison.

I agree with Very Super Market.
Opening more fronts when those you need to close are already too many
is an unacceptable mistake. And nor Hitler nor his officers were stupid.
They may have overestimated the soldiers' zeal towards the war but they knew their
strength in numbers nonetheless.

I think Spain would have been a harder nut to crack than you think. If I were Hitler I would have concentrated on taking Malta and then supporting Rommel as much as possible to take Egypt and the canal. Then the Germans could have controlled the entire Med and pushed on into the oil fields of Arabia. Sure the British would have sortied from Gibraltar, but then their ships would have had to run the gauntlet of Axis airbases with no friendly ports left to seek shelter and repairs.