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Well im happy to be wrong , this is why im not writing the campaign :yep:

Raptor, you are correct, I was generalizing the 1st/2d Naval Battles of Guadalcanal, and regarding the RM's CV. I thought she was finished. I do agree, however, that the RM was a more balanced navy than the KM, though. You're right about all the Cactus Express (aka Tokyo Express) engagements. I was just counting the major engagements.

I'm not down on surface actions anywhere, gotta love 'em, just that the PTO is often wrongly characterized as an exclusively CV show, when that is clearly not true.

At least finland is there, and im damn happy about that. I cant wait to drive around the FN Ilmarinen or Väinämöinen.. Both are so pretty ships, small yet pack hell of a punch:)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

And the RM never had a CV AFAIK (Aquila was never finished)

That's right mate...she was never fully completed...not far from, but never fully.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/Aquila.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

And the RM never had a CV AFAIK (Aquila was never finished)

That's right mate...she was never fully completed...not far from, but never fully.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/Aquila.html

The Graf Zeppelin was ninty-something percent completed as well IIRC

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raptor1

And the RM never had a CV AFAIK (Aquila was never finished)

That's right mate...she was never fully completed...not far from, but never fully.

http://www.comandosupremo.com/Aquila.html

The Graf Zeppelin was ninty-something percent completed as well IIRC

You could well be right.

This article stes 85% but either way, she was well on her way to completion.

Quote:

Graf Zeppelin was an aircraft carrier of the Kriegsmarine, named in honor of Count Ferdinand von Zeppelin. Her construction was ordered on 16 November 1935, and her keel was laid down 28 December 1936 by Deutsche Werke of Kiel. She was launched on 8 December 1938, but was never commissioned.
In 1935, Adolf Hitler announced that Germany would construct aircraft carriers to strengthen the Kriegsmarine. The keels of two were laid down the next year. Two years later, Grand Admiral Erich Raeder presented an ambitious shipbuilding program called the Z Plan, in which four carriers were to be built by 1945. In 1939, he revised the plan, reducing the number to be built to two.
The German Navy has always maintained a policy of not assigning a name to a ship until she is launched. The first German carrier, laid down as "Carrier A," was named Graf Zeppelin when launched in 1938. The second carrier bore only the title "Carrier B," since she was never launched. Various names, including Peter Strasser and Deutschland, were rumored, but no official decision was ever made.
A review of the Führer's conferences on matters dealing with the German Navy, the minutes of which were captured after the fall of the Third Reich, reveals Hitler's vacillating interest in the carriers. Marshall Hermann Göring, Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, was resentful of any incursion on his authority as head of the country's air power and he frustrated Raeder at every opportunity. Within his own service, Raeder found opposition in Admiral Karl Doenitz, a submarine man.
By May 1941, the strain on manpower and raw materials was being felt in Germany. Raeder was still optimistic, however, and informed Hitler that Graf Zeppelin, then about 85 per cent complete, would be completed in about a year and that another year would be required for sea trials and flight training.
Though Hitler continued to assure Raeder that the carriers would be built, the Admiral's war with Göring had no truce and became increasingly bitter. Göring showed his contempt for the naval air arm by informing Hitler and Raeder that the aircraft ordered for Graf Zeppelin could not be available until the end of 1944. Göring's delaying tactics worked.
Construction on the carriers had been fitful from the start. "Carrier B" was abandoned in 1940 and broken up. Manpower and material shortages plagued the Graf Zeppelin.
Prodded by Raeder, Hitler ordered Göring to produce aircraft for the carrier and under this pressure, the air marshall offered redesigned versions of the Junkers Ju 87B and the Messerschmitt Bf 109E-3 which were at that time being phased out of the Luftwaffe first-line squadrons. Raeder was unhappy, but he had to accept them or none at all. This forced another delay in the construction of the carrier: the flight deck installations had to be changed.
By 1943, Hitler had become disenchanted with his Navy. Raeder was relieved at his own request and Doenitz, the submarine admiral, took the top naval post. Work on Graf Zeppelin stopped completely.
As the end of World War II neared, Graf Zeppelin was scuttled in shallow water at Szczecin (known to the Germans as Stettin) on 25 April, 1945. After Germany's surrender, though, her history and fate is unclear. According to the terms of the Allied Tripartite Commission, a "Category C" ship (damaged or scuttled) should have been destroyed or sunk in deep water by 15 August 1946. However, reports were received in 1947 that she had been raised by the Soviet Union and towed to Leningrad. She probably left Seeswinoujcie (the port of Szczecin, known to the Germans as Swinemünde) on 14 August 1947.
It is very unlikely that the hulk made it to Leningrad; the arrival of such a large and unusual vessel would have been noticed by Western intelligence forces. This assumption implies that the hulk was lost at sea between Swinemünde and Leningrad.
One account concludes that she struck a mine north of Rügen on 15 August 1947, but Rügen, west of Swinemünde, is not on the sailing route to Leningrad. Further north, in the Gulf of Finland, a heavily-mined area difficult for Western observers to monitor, is more likely.
Another account specifies that the Soviets designated Graf Zeppelin "PO-101" (Floating Base Number 101), towed a short way from Swinemünde, and anchored as a training target for dive-bombers and torpedo vessels. The tests began on 16 August 1947. Allegedly, the Soviets installed aerial bombs on the flight deck, in hangars and even inside the funnels (to simulate a load of combat munitions), and then dropped bombs from aircraft, fired shells, and shot torpedoes into her. This assault would both comply with the Tripartite mandate (albeit late) and provide the Soviets with experience in sinking an aircraft carrier.
General Characteristics (design)

Displacement: 23,000 tons
Length: 920 feet
Beam: 88 feet
Power Plant: geared turbines, four screws (unusual for Germany, which preferred triple screws)
Speed: 33.8 knots
Aircraft Complement: 42 Messerschmitt ME109TT fighters and Junkers Ju 87CC dive bombers

</H1>

It says that the carrier was 85% completed in May, 1941, while work on it stopped completely in 1943

Either way, she was useless without being finished, though she could probably have given some potency to the Kriegsmarine's surface fleet

1 CV is meaningless anyway. The IJN showed the world a lesson they didn't absorb themselves. Massing Carrier airpower. The Kido Butai was an unbeatable force in 1941/42 as long as all 6 CVs stayed together.

Single Axis CVs in the ATO/Med would have been wiped out in short order. The KM had zero capacity to maintain a CV Battlegroup at sea. The GZ was a waste of resources. To have a real navy, you need to at least be able to put to sea at will, LOL, not have to sneak out like thieves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Good points.....I have to agree http://www.psionguild.org/forums/ima...s/thumbsup.gif

I'd have to disagree, a single carrier would be useless if you're looking to create a carrier battlegroup, but as cover for a surface ship-based task force it could help a lot

First of all, THANK YOU to all involved in this fine mod work to enhance surface units, this is very exciting to read and see.

Interesting discussion. Re the mod packs, my humble suggestoin might be to do the carrier or carriers before group 4, in terms of game play and scenarios, there is much more purpose to have working carriers, even if their air groups must constantly circle than the small navies, interesting tho they are, and I too love the story of Finland.

Re the Kriegsmarine, it was a powerful and siginficant fleet far beyond its completion numbers due to the vastly superior watertight integrity, engineering advances in drive train, and gunnery, and training, and was a major influence on the naval war from the start.

Surface campaigns could and should include the Norway invasion that saw the loss of major units by both sides, including the loss of two British carriers at sea with almost all hands, and many other sorties, the battle at Narvik, and other events. A carrier arm would have greatly increased the potential of the KM in many ways, for a roving carrier fast battleship group at sea would have wreaked havoc on the convoy lanes, as the KM did not betray their positions at sea for surface units as they did with subs. And ys the Italian Navy was a very very fine fleet, some of the best ship designs of the time, and there were significant surface engagements and events, such as the torpedoing of the fleet at Tarento, many convoy engagments that were attempting to resupply Rommel, and many more possiblities. The evac of Greece comes to mind, and with that, hopes that some kind of air resources may be able to added to the game, mod wise, tho i know that is a long shot at this point.

and ys, the Pacific Theatre was a surface war as much as an air war and a sub war, and the doctrine, training and focus of tactics and strategy of both fleets showed that, for indeed the IJN perservered indeed in face of facts, in hoping for the great final conflict on the surface, which was deeply ingrained in them from the successes of the Russo Japanese War and their history of association with the RN and its heritage of surface fleet strategy and Mahan's overall philosophy.

This mod work is very exciting to see and great enhances the potential of this already amazing sim. I have the greatest admiration for all hands involved.

3D Models and Lighting

Ivank, here is a wonderful site concerning 3d watercrafts for FSX.Maybe this guy can give you some help with vessel moving parts,lighting and more,he is really good !

http://www.deltasimstudio.com/index.htm

Best regards.

Yeah, but it would be a single CV vs enemies with multiple CVs.

If you're within range of land-based air, the CV becomes the prime target, and quickly dead. If it's actually at sea for extended periods (sort of laughable as a concept for the KM), then it faces multiple CVs. On top of that, it has virtually no replenishment.

Single CVs have use, to be sure, but they are far more useful for a navy that has CVs to burn. If it's a precious unit, then a lone CV is indeed useless. Even the IJN with multiple fleet CVs was in this situation. Each carrier was effectively irreplaceable. As a result, using them onesy-twosy was a disaster. Using them attracts the enemy, yet a single CV (particularly one like GZ that would have had a tiny airgroup) cannot defend itself.

So useful, like Bismark, for one sortie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Ah, but had the Bismarck a carrier for air cover, the Ark Royal's torpedo planes would not have been able to jam her rudder, thus allowing her to escape to occupied France...probably

The Royal Navy had more CVs, but they had to spread 'em to places like the far-east and the Med, so the GZ could have operated in the Atlantic

Til the USN came to town. Then the GZ would have been talking to the fishes.

The KM had zero experience operating CVs. Zero. Had the GZ been finished, there is no reason to expect it would have been early in the war, otherwise, well, it would have been finished. Had they not done so when they were winning everywhere, you must assume she'd be commissioned after things went south. Think 1942 (late) earliest.

1943 is a bad time for "on the job training" in CV operations vs the USN.

Also, the KM had already picked navalized 109s and Ju-87s as the planes. Noobs. Water-cooled engines? WTF were they thinking? (yeah, I know about navalized Spits, they were stupid, too. You want planes that can come home with cylinders missing when the alternative is being shark food.

Another problem is that they followed the RN/IJN model for plane embarkation. The GZ was designed to stow her aircraft below. That might be OK from a weather standpoint in the North Atlantic, but it makes for slow turn around times, and dangerous CVs. It was gassing and bombing up planes below decks that caused the IJN disaster that was Midway (contrary to popular myth, there were not many planes on the IJN flight decks that day, they were warming up in the hanger spaces). USN doctrine was to embark all aircraft on the flight deck. They only went below to be worked on. This allowed USN CVs to carry considerably more aircraft.

Quantity has a quality all its own ;)