Excellent post Monica Lewinsky. :up: Fully share your sentiments. :yep:

Can I just call you Monica? ;)

Only if you buy him flowers and dinner first...

OK - this idea that letting one of the big 3 die would cause a ripple effect that would destroy the economy - is bullocks. Yes - there would be some effect - but lets examine things here shall we? We will use GM as the example.

Option 1 - bail em out - again....
How many Billions of tax dollars are taken out of the hands of the working people to shore up a failing business? Doing so robs the working class to pay for the errors of the powerful. Ok - so some people whose efforts right now are focused on producing a product that the market really doesnt want - will get the opportunity to continue doing things the same way for the same result. You do know insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? But hey - they and the suppliers and everyone else get to keep their jobs for a while still right? At least until the next bailout is due..... What does all that money - that you or I would have been able to use for the things we need - now its not in the economy any more - what effect does that have? Less business transactions, less spending - the bottom and "recession" deepens.

Option 2 - let em fail...
They fail - employees are let go - suppliers see there customer dissolve. Now what? Well - wait a minute - now there are GM customers who still need parts - so the suppliers are going to have some customers still. The new car buyers now have less "choice" - but since the ones who would have bought GM cars can't - more business for the other car companies. Something the other 2 companies could take advantage of..... Those same suppliers are going to transition from GM supplies and will start competing to provide parts to the other 2 companies. Competition reduces prices - which is good for the consumer.... Now - what about the skilled employees that are out of jobs? Well, with an increase in demand for other brands, increased demand means ramped up production - so many would be able to use their existing skills to ramp into a position with another producer. No, I don't pretend ALL of them would find jobs in the same industry.

Ok - we have taken care of the supplier, the worker - who is left? Oh yea, the executive bigwigs who ran the joint into the ground with their stupidity. Hmmmm - I don't forsee them being asked to take over another big manufacturer due to their history of failure. Seems the only "losers" here are the ones that SHOULD HAVE LOST in the first place. And all without costing you or me or anyone else an extra dime.

Which option works better?????

*Note - instead of bailouts - lets make it more attractive for companies that produce quality goods - like vehicles - to make them here - more american jobs and they don't have to pay to ship the things from china or wherever else. Who cares if it says Toyota - if it was made in Oklahoma?????

OK - this idea that letting one of the big 3 die would cause a ripple effect that would destroy the economy - is bullocks. Yes - there would be some effect - but lets examine things here shall we? We will use GM as the example.

Option 1 - bail em out - again....
How many Billions of tax dollars are taken out of the hands of the working people to shore up a failing business? Doing so robs the working class to pay for the errors of the powerful. Ok - so some people whose efforts right now are focused on producing a product that the market really doesnt want - will get the opportunity to continue doing things the same way for the same result. You do know insanity is defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result, right? But hey - they and the suppliers and everyone else get to keep their jobs for a while still right? At least until the next bailout is due..... What does all that money - that you or I would have been able to use for the things we need - now its not in the economy any more - what effect does that have? Less business transactions, less spending - the bottom and "recession" deepens.

Option 2 - let em fail...
They fail - employees are let go - suppliers see there customer dissolve. Now what? Well - wait a minute - now there are GM customers who still need parts - so the suppliers are going to have some customers still. The new car buyers now have less "choice" - but since the ones who would have bought GM cars can't - more business for the other car companies. Something the other 2 companies could take advantage of..... Those same suppliers are going to transition from GM supplies and will start competing to provide parts to the other 2 companies. Competition reduces prices - which is good for the consumer.... Now - what about the skilled employees that are out of jobs? Well, with an increase in demand for other brands, increased demand means ramped up production - so many would be able to use their existing skills to ramp into either a position with another producer. No, I don't pretend ALL of them would find jobs in the same industry.

Ok - we have taken care of the supplier, the worker - who is left? Oh yea, the executive bigwigs who ran the joint into the ground with their stupidity. Hmmmm - I don't forsee them being asked to take over another big manufacturer due to their history of failure. Seems the only "losers" here are the ones that SHOULD HAVE LOST in the first place. And all without costing you or me or anyone else an extra dime.

Which option works better?????

*Note - instead of bailouts - lets make it more attractive for companies that produce quality goods - like vehicles - to make them here - more american jobs and they don't have to pay to ship the things from china or wherever else. Who cares if it says Toyota - if it was made in Oklahoma?????

unfortunately that's not the first time that a great american car company disappear just watch my galleries but i agree with you on the fact that if they all would come to disappear that would be a great loss not to say a disaster . even as an european the loss of companies such Chevrolet or Cadillac would make me very (very , very) sad . Who did not dream of driving a Cadillac Fleetwood or a 1959 Eldorado such cars that only american can make there's Porsche there's Mercedes , theres's Bentley none of these brands whatever great they are have what american cars have the american cars have don't know it's indescribable and that's maybe why they are so fun :sunny: . but what i wanted to say it's that the actual problem being very complicated to analize the good way should be maybe to let things go on and let the wound heals by itself that was my though

I think the union needs to take a pay cut.

Will not happen unless..

A) The big 3 go down at the same time.

B) Unions are made unlawful.

UAW is the most powerful union there is. The benefits they get are insane just here alone I am hearing of workers that fit a single bolt and get over 20 dollars an hour. At the speed the line is going that is less than a quarter of the work an Entry level worker struggles at.

Then add in insane benefits.

That is not going to just get "Cut"

So the only way forward is to go electric or go down.

Nice sentiment but not the issue concerning the auto industry. The auto industry has nothing to do with people living beyond their means. The auto industry is living beyond their means. They have gotten government money in the past and still in the hole. The union has crushed the company. If the union was interested in saving their jobs, take a pay cut. The local union of Preston trucking here in MD did it to save their jobs, alas, the writting was on the wall and the owners wanted it to fail anyway because more money would be made breaking up Preston Trucking and they did so a year after the union took the cut. The union workers are making more than the three of us combined and for what? Running in some bolts on an assembly line. Another case and point, Catapiller in York PA. The union was demanding more money and went on strike. Catapiller could not meet their demands and advised the union to leave the pay scale were it was and have a job or get a pay raise and the factory would close. The union was given the choice. They wanted more money, got it and the factory closed in two weeks. So, a bunch of strong arm union bosses got nothing....no job, no pay, no health benefits. Like I said, unions break companies, do not make them. Give the auto makers the money but the union has to be abolished and payscale created commenserate with the work at hand.

Screw that, clean house like Reagan did with the air traffic controllers union. Plenty of folks would take the job at $15.00/hour. The unions have strong armed enough, however, we all better believe the unions played a factor financially in Obama's favor during his campaign. Just like the mafia, it is payback time. To further that notion, the union screams that all of these poeple will loose their jobs right on down to the suppliers. It is in essense blackmail and puts the government over the barrel with their butt cheeks wide open. The union knows this and uses this tactic all the time.

Yea, can't happen. True classics. All hail, Lee Iacoccca!
You gonna get yours

Heya guys, just thought I'd throw in my two cents on the matter, seeing as how I'm currently employed in a GM factory (as a temp, not a full time employee). GM has won mid-size Car of the Year the past two years in a row. In 2007 it was the Saturn Aura, and this year it's the Chevy Malibu. This might be too little, too late, but it does show that GM is going in the right direction. The Volt is scheduled to arrive in 2010, and as far as I know, only Mitsubishi has an all-electric car coming out earlier (and they just recently pushed the date ahead from 2010 to 2009 a few weeks ago). I personally own a 2001 Saturn SC2 and have had nothing wrong with it except for regular maintenance. Also, my normal driving habits (70% highway) usually garner about 30-35 mpg.

The problem is that no one thinks "mid-size car" and "Chevy/Ford/Chrysler" in the same sentence. That's their own fault for allowing the Japanese to take over that market, but to claim that they produce nothing but Hummers/Chargers/etc. is patently false.

Like any other work place, a GM factory has it's good jobs and bad jobs. There are some people who get paid an amazing amount of money to do very little, but most jobs are boring, mind-numbing, and yet, not easy. And there are plenty of jobs at the plant that I wouldn't do for double what the regular guys get paid. In most stations, the timing is so tight that if you drop a screw, you will stop the line. Most jobs are also moderately physically demanding, as they've got you clambering all over the car to attach this, tie that down, shoot that bolt then the other bolt, then repeat ad nauseum for the next eight hours. Most days I wake up sore, and the first couple weeks were pure misery. So the idea of one guy screwing one bolt then waiting for five minutes for the next car to arrive is highly inaccurate.

The last round of negotiations (in 2007, I think) definitely benefited GM. They got the UAW to cover health care for retired workers, and reduced the benefits for current employees. The Union realizes it's screwed and is trying to salvage what it can. Although the deal benefits GM long term, and lets them compete with the Japanese automakers in terms of employee salary and benefits, it hits them hard in the short term because they have to donate something like $35 billion into the UAW health care trust. As I understand it, what GM really wants the gov't loan money for is that $35 billion.

That's not to say that GM shouldn't go under. I believe it should, along with the other two. And I also think that the people who claim it's not the UAW's fault are trying to rationalize how unions are still necessary. It's not entirely their fault, as the management of GM has made some horrible decisions which might have sunk the company on their own, but the UAW are certainly to blame. I do, however, believe that the gov't will bail them out. If Bush won't do it, then I guarantee you that Obama will. Going to work for the past two months has me believing that the UAW has it's own form of Newspeak. I was bombarded with Obama literature and propaganda, and anyone who thought he wasn't the promised one was roundly criticized. I quickly learned to stow any non-union ideals in the car before I entered the plant.

Personally, I believe the UAW does more harm than good, and that GM, Chrysler, and Ford should collapse. I also think it would be a very scary thing if that happened.

i need to be enlighted on a point , why US companies never tried to take market parts in Europe . i mean i've been in a US car once it was long time ago it was a little Chevy Beretta i mean that little car was great much more comfortable that its equivalents in Europe (maybe it used much more petrol too can't tell wasn't a the steering wheel :confused:) .

You are correct Larry on all points, specifically the bailout. Washington will send the money. There is one other part you did not mention and I went over it a few posts back...quality. I believe the quality of the cars made by the big three have grown considerably. I worked as a mechanic for 8 years(back in the 80's). I spent more time fixing GM products then any other. My experience with a brand new 1988 Monte Carlo was horrible. All of this happened before 27000 miles on it:

Replace pinion/seal/universal joint in rear axle (this was the day after I purchased the car:o )
leaking rear window
Blown valve seals
broken speedo cable
unbalanced drum from the factory (car vibrated at speed and I had to go to 3 dealers to finally find the problem and get it corrected)
Check engine light on (replaced ECM)
valve seals blown (again:o ). This time I did the repair myself with racing valve seals.
Check engine light on again. Car cuts off for no reason. Replace EGR valve and another ECM.
Check engine light on two days later. Car cuts off in the middle of intersection. Advised to pull intake manifold to clean up carbon build up by GM repair shop.

I advised to shove the car back to Detroit and turned it in. It was the safest car on the road because it was always in the shop. :-? Traded to a Japanese Geo Storm. Not a lick of trouble right up to 120000 miles. Nothing, zero, worked like a charm and as designed. I vowed never to purchase a GM ever again. I'm just one of millions to make the same vow because of the same problems. Many experienced this with Ford and Chrysler. It is very hard to shake the undependable quotent once you been labeled with it.

Currently I own a Lincoln Continental(Ford) and a Mercury Mountineer. No problems at all. I feel these are good quality cars and will continue to purchase Ford products. I just turned in our Dodge Caravan. Another excellent vehicle. Two issues with this van, bad pulley design for the serpentine belt and accumulator for the A/C under the dash. Other than that, we took that van right up 120000 miles without issue. I sold it to a relative for $400.00 who just loves the vehicle. The quality is back but getting people back onboard to show them the quality is very hard. The big three need to drive home the idea that their vehicles are quality made. Specifically, GM, needs to get new designers. Their cars are just dog butt ugly. Example, the Aztec...what the hell were they thinking. I just saw a concept car from Buick. Super nice and IMO a vehicle that will sell. We will probably not see this car get manufactured. At the moment I see only Buick leading the way on cars that are appealing.

They did, but they did it through european companies. Ford owns Jaguar and Volvo, as well as producing cars themselves. GM owns Opel and it's british brandname Vauxhall. I am not aware of anything Chrysler related, though.

that's a very cruel post for us europeans http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire3.gif

this thread's beginning to stress me Chevrolet and Cadillac are going to disappear no
[mode humor on]moderators please close that thread and also burn Subsim server so that this thread can't be found again http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire3.gif http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b2...s/sourire3.gif[/mode humor off]