Indeed Mik. :yep:

For my part, I'm liquidating all my US assets and heading to Canada. Northwest Territories.

I'm also taking my "Guns and my Bibles." I even plan to cling to both of them (never mind that I have never owned either one until now :D).

What else is there though? And where else could I go anyway.

NZ and AUS are my only two other choices, the way I see it....


CS

Bad loser, eh? Election the past two times were much closer, and the Democrats defeat with law files and scandals and narrow margin and what else there was, really was blown up. but the other way around is not so pleasant, hm?

----

However, by electoral votes it is a very clear and decisive victory for Obama, and the democratic vote at least is not so close as the last times. I think, this is needed, for whoever would have become president, probbaly no president before, with the maybe exception of WWII, has to face such a big heap of troubles lying ahead of gim. There is the mortgage left by bush, the loss of trust and reputation internationally, several desperately needed inner reforms, a polarised society with some unforgiving Republican camps, there are many wounds to heal and the need of reaching out hands again. A weak president would have found that impossible maybe, so a strong vote for the new one really was in need.

As American, i would think the far better choice has won. As a European I would have preferred MacCain, it would have been easier for Europe to refuse demands he would have made, namely on defense and war participation, than it will be with Obama. However, Europe will make demands in return as well, namely on energy and climate issues. with Obama relations will be less empotional and hateful as it was 4 and 5 years ago, and the tone of relations will become better, no doubt, but I am just waiting for the unbelieving eyes here in europe when he starts making the demands that over here most people do not seem to expect coming.

Russia is not happy. Obama does not fit their schemes, and they fear he could turn out to be as hard a rock to move and as patriotic and motivating for americans, like Kennedy was. Kennedy they also have not in good memory, for obvious reasons. For russia, Obama appears as the greater risk, compared to McCain, who may be a cold warrior, but that is a scheme they are familiar with.

What will become of the Republicans. McCain is unlikely to become the next leader of the party, he is too old, and now he is burnt. Palin? She has a small camp supporting her,e but beyond that I cannot see her being allowed to play a major role, she has build her bad reputation, and she is simply dumb. Her ambitions are higher than her abilities, and if that will be enough to carry her to higher flight levels remains to be seen, I doubt it. Who else is there? There were several surprise defeats in senate and house elections as well, and currently the Republicans appear to be headless. Maybe they would be wise to form a new leadership and practice a radical exchnage of generation, like the Democrats did with Obama, and then not hunkering down with steel helmets and engaging in ideological trench warfare, but accept Obama's hand for cooperation and healing of america''s wide gap between the two. Obama for the time to come does not need them, the democratic victory is total and complete, but I tell you that he will try to offer his hand to the Republicans as far as is possible without giving up major projects of himself. The reds would be well-advised to accept it. Else they could kick themselves into the offsides for many years to come. Overly ambitious individuals in their rows they better keep under tight control, therefor.

[quote=TheSatyr]You must not know much about Obama if you think he also embraces the Republican party...only ONCE did he ever co write a bill with a Republican...and it was defeated...other than that he just voted "present" or occasionally voted with the rest of the Democrats.

This is the first time in my life I've ever been ashamed of my Country. You elected a marxist,terrorist loving empty suit as President...just because he was black. They must be dancing in the streets in the Gaza Strip and in Tehran tonight.

[FWIW, I'm competely ashamed too...so I hope you weren't aiming this at me (because I disown/disavow it completely--I wouldn't have sold my vote (to Obama) for 100 Trillion Dollars)/aka "everything I ever wanted on this earth for myself or all of my family." No.]

Course it was inevitable when that idiot McCain was picked by the Republicans.

[I disagree here--I think McCain is a a true Patriot and a man of Honor. But at the same time, I think he was also (because he IS a good and decent man) too willing to believe the same of his political opponent.

There was a clip a couple of weeks back where a woman (at a McCain rally) took the mic..and said she was afraid of Obama: "He's a Muslim," she said...

McCain stopped her, and said something like "No...he's a good and decent man."

I LIKE John McCain. And so I can easily see why he would have wanted to think that about Obama.

But I think he was wrong at that moment too. I think he was unwilling...(because he IS the sort of man who wants to think the best of his fellow man)...to even suspect anything worse of his opponent than he would have thought of himself.

In this he failed us. He SHOULD have suspected worse.

I think the woman who challenged him was completely right, and I think McCain was wrong.

JM was simply ...UNABLE to face the truth of what his opponent actually IS.

God will forgive him for his error. I only hope God will also keep the rest of us from paying a severe price for his mistake at the same time.

But somehow I suspect God won't. Revalation and all that.....


CS

Relax, he can't mess it up any worse than 8 years of Republican ruling have done. the worst thing that could happen is that things stay as bad as they are. But that he will not follow Republican ideology's agenda, is clear - with that you have to live, no matter how you call it.

Try to think beyond party horizon's and ideological tunnel-views! ;) Wait what good he will do (or not), and how many or how few are affected by it.

I wasn't bribed by either side so I didn't vote, I hated all the candidates.

You forget that he nevertheless allowed his campaing to spill out truckloads of hateful slanderings, putting Obama in one bag with bin Laden, with the KGB, with Islamism in special and terrorism in general, not to mention those evil wicked socialists, and allowing manipulative attributions being constructed about him that hardly can be topped in destructiveness and intention to personally hurt the man. MacCain either campaigned with split tongue, or he did not have his campaign waggon under control and was not master in his house. MacCain waged a very destructive, negative campaign, and I think that helped the Blues - people didn'T like it, like most people are of the opinion that the goal does not justify any means.

Right, let's tackle this with a bit more common sense, kay?

First of all, in case of the US, it is not so much about US support for Europe against Russia. Russia has a gross domestic budget comparable to Portugal. They are big with sabre rattling, just like in the cold war era, but there is not much substance behind it to pose a real threat, especially with Russia's number 1 money maker, oil, going to the bottom right now and the country's economy beeing in big big trouble thanks to their Georgia adventure, which caused investors to leave the country, amplified by the financial crisis. Russia has some very basic and deep running domestic problems and is in no state to pose a serious threat within the next 10 years minimum as long no madman with a twitchy finger comes to power. But in such a case it really does not matter what a state the US is in anyways.

What is going to happen is that Obama will ask the Europeans for more support in Afghanistan. And given the current and ongoing debates in Germany about the Afghanistan deployment, and I think ppl here are slowly becoming aware we are fighting a real war there, I expect german and european policy to change to a more agressive stance there, which should help the US quite a bit. As you can see, it is not so much about support from the US to Europe, but vice versa. The US currently is in no condition, from a military POV, to make annother commitment anyways.

What you need to realize is the following. The US lost big time in the last 8 years. I do not know how much this got to the US population, but the world has seen the US becoming a ruthless, almost criminal country from its former status as a beacon of light for the west. Bush utterly corruped and destroyed the picture the world has had of the United States, and this plays a huge role in actual politics, how well the US is recieved and how open other nations are to US leadership and proposals. This does not go for it's allies alone, but to all of the world. The US simply lost respect and authority big time, to a degree much worse then any military debacle in Iraq or Afghanistan could have achieved alone. To regain this morale authority, a capital not as obvious as purely economic or military might, should be the US highest priority. It's more subtle then raw power, but in the end so much more effective in making a country's interest succesfull when it comes to behind the door talks and more importantly, acceptance of the population of any given country.

Now, I am not into US domestic politics too much. I have my personal stances which I am more then willing to make clear, but I seriously do not care "that" much if the US is socialist, social democratic or purely capitalistic. It's your choice what a country you want to live in and it's system. But, from an international POV, voting Obama into Office propably was the biggest gain in international respect the US ever got in one night. You got a huge bonus here after the Bush years, and the world will be willing to listen once again. Bush practically played no role anymore on the international stage. Nobody took him even remotely serious. That to change should even be in the interest of republicans.

I think major parts of the german population already are aware of a war happening in Afghanistan, Bewolf, and just politicians are trying to hide the truth that already has escaped into the open. And yet most Germans, 75-90%, are against any military engagement there at all. I can't see politicians stopping soon to weasel around, and I think the question of increased military engagement in Afghanistan is set to become a very hot issue over here - politicians do not worry about Afghanistan being lost so much, they are concerned about losing their voters. Obama or MacCain, it does not matter, on the Afghanistan issue Germany and America are set on collision course. Obama probably will make higher demands than the german are wqilling to accept, and the Germans are willing to engage a birt more, but not to the level Obama demands. even more so when it was said in campaigning that a higher increase of european engagement over there would allow america to withdraw troops and save it's ressources for being spend at home. Remember that that was taken very queer over here, some months ago?

No problem....just remember to bring your sidearm :lol:

I don't know. It's a question of cause and effect, I think. First of all, the question is why most folks here are opposed to the war. Digging into the topic it should be quite obvious why it is so important to win this war, not just for the immidiate future, but in the long run, for Germany's and the whole western worlds stance in the region and ultimately for ideals the west claims to have. It is not about saving a few farmers or making Al Quaida run away, but to keep a promise made to the world when we entered that country. Losing out of this may further undermine western values and ultimately ourselves.

I am optimistc more ppl are aware of that then obvious at first glance, on a concious or subconcious level. The problem are the polititans themselves, who are not able to cope with the issue in a mature and proffessional way, dealing with the german population not on an eye to eye level, but as you said, fearing for their votes. I do not think they are aware it may not be the war itself bringing ppl to such an opposition, but their treatment of the subject matter, their dishonesty and escapism, coupled with the fact they treat killed german soldiers there not as young men that died for principles, but merely accidents.

Nevertheless, reading newspapers and magazines, forums and having real life discussions bout it, I think this stance is about to change. I read more and more about that little pesky german word "Krieg". It's named for what it is finally, and that I consider a first step into the right direction. What happens next will be seen. But it is a fact we can't go on as we did before in the future. Either we pull out, with all the consequences negative or positive, or we make a real comitment, with all the hardship and sacrifices that may mean. The world is a rough place, and Germany and Europe as a whole better wake up from their self chosen isolation and ignorance. With that I mean the ppl themselves who take their lives and privileges as a granted birthright. At least in this agree to the US.

I would keep two things separate, the (now dead) beacon of democracy project of the (now dead neocon) US, and the far more modest goals proclaimed by the europeans going into Afghanistan initially, and separately from the US operations. And last but not least it lies in american repsonsibility that the situation nafter the initial kick-out of the Taleban detoriated again, for the US left Afghanistan to itself again too soon, and too weak. That crippled all goals the europeans intiially had, by encouraging the Taleban to come back in strength.

I always called it a mistake of NATO to goi into Afghanistan. I alwys called it a mistake for Germany to go into afguhnaistan, for those idiotic historic reasons they have given, concering WWI and how close the history of Germany and Afghanistan always has been tied, bullsh!t.

The political establishement has no realsitic vision for Afghnaistan, and it planlessly stumbles around in blindness, hopiung for some fair cleaning the situation for them. Either

a.) the principle of absolute reaslism takles over the poltical decision-making and there is a clear willingness to call this a war and defining clear conditions for what is considered to be a win, and under what conditions bare being brought hokme again, then eventually, dspite the folly of the whole operation I am willing to accept an unlimited effort of doing what is needed to wage that war (but I doubt that Germany has the logistical capacity and that the BW is financed well-enough to maintain such a huge mission: we talk of clear and open war on almost the other side of the planet), and then still I am notz sure the war can be won, for a war in Afghnaistan in my view necessarily includes more or less war in and with Pakistan as well;

or b.) the troops pull out and are brought home. Since the current german psoitions is a mixture of refusing to see reality and dancing on eggs, I demand the immediate and complete withdrawal of the BW forces. I am not willing to risk the lives of men and women in the Bundeswehr for nothing more than this crappy political conception - better the absence of any realistic conception - that currently form thiscarricature of a government's posture on the Afghan issue.

How schizophrenic the german view of things is you can see in their absurd, hilarious rules of engagement. A symptom the naval operation at the Somali coats alöso is suffering from, pirates are quoted with saying that they laugh when they see the germans on patrol, becasue they are being forbidden to take action of any kind that goes beyond observing and writing a report. You can assault a ship right under their eyes, and the germans will watch and write a report, that's all. Great.

One thing I do not accept: to vaguely refer to alleged German responsibilities towards a follish NATO mission, or a vague idea of an alleged "shared history" we should have with Afghanistan. This latter stuff get'S blown up beyond realistic scale, and since Afghnaistan (and even more: its corruopt leaders) wanted something from Germany, Karzai did his best to hammer this history thing home, and many philantropists in Germany even were not too stupid not to believe it.

I have'nt the slightest interest in what's "useful."

Even if the EU all woke up an and realized I was 100% right today... :D....it would still be far too late to be "useful"...or to make them (even if they were all suddenly willling) into an "ontensible ally"

I'm just telling them "I told you so, you dorks" in advance for the sake of saying so. I'm recording my meaningless "expertise" before history overtakes all of us and sweeps us underneath the wave of it's carpet.

That's ALL I can possibly hope to gain from it, unless you think realizing uh-oh....maybe you were right after all, Snow" would have some sort of defensive value (I don't. It might be amusing, but it would also be a complete waste of time to hope for it--we would still all be smashed.)

I'll take it further: A SOCIALIST US is entirely doomed--it cannot defend itself without a strong, CAPITALIST country to back it up (and the Chinese will only laugh).

I plan to liqudate my US assets ASAP. After which I will move to Canada.

Not that it will do me much good either.


CS

For once, KL and I agree on something. Obama needs to deliver. I'm thinking the wheels are about to fall off the delivery truck. This happens with every President. Obama will be no different. Yet, his shoes are a bit bigger to fill being his rhetoric was just outlandish to say the least.

I'd like to agree to you in that Europe follows another route then the US. The problem though, as far as I can see this, is that other parts of the world regard to the US and Europe, practically all of NATO, as one block, not much seperated from each other. That means, whatever the US does, it will have an effect for Europe purely by association, american hypocrisis becomes western hypocrisis and eventually...german hypocrisis, even if we ourselves know the differences.

Another problem, as far as my understanding for the situation goes, is the following. European countries as they are now do not have a big stance on the international stage where giants like Russia, the US, India or China try to put through their interests. This situation will become worse with the gradual decline of the US and the raise of China and the far east in general. Now I do not believe the world will become a better place. The situation as it is reminds me more of the europea nation states close to the 20ths century. Bickering, nationalism and the continuation of diplomatic politics with military means will once again become the norm. The world has been in kind of a slumber after the end of the cold war and now reemerges in a shape known from before WW2. Europe needs to get its act together as a whole to play a role in that. So far the population more or less reminds me of the US before WW1, isolisationist, the worlds problems are not ours, let others take care of it.

This simply does not fly, that is one lesson history proved already. I am not pro war, far from it. But I consider war a sad reality in this world, one that should be avoided whereever possible, but not at all costs.

Now to your points, I agree to all of them, especially the last one. We don't do this just for NATO, even though we do have a certain responsebility in this regard. I am not a fan of another german "Sonderweg". We had that, it didn't work out. But beeing in an alliance may force us to commit even if we do not like it. This is the basis of cooperation everyhwere.

Nevertheless, a real war should be very carefully considered. For good or worse, Germany chose to participate in this war. We can't pull out now just so with a "Eh, sorry, we tried, didn't work, cheerio" and leave the ppl there behind to get once again killed and opressed by the Taliban. And that does not just apply to Karzai and his crowies. One thing is for sure, should we leave, and the Taliban come back, a lot of common folks there will bite the dust, if not worse. And I am not sure this is a path Germany should go. Especially in light of the stance our troops down there have, which basicly comes down to "Let us just do the job". A much more mature view then either the polititans nor the population here has. From my POV we don't have another option but to name the child by it's name and get the job done the right way. Anything else will mean: more deaths, more terror, more hypocrisis on the human level, less influence, tainted values and a loss of direction on a western nationwide level. It will have a very negative psychological impact on all sides. The chance to not get involved passed a long time ago. Debating that is wasted energy, I fear, but should serve as good example for future issues.