We haven't risen to our ideals, we're sinking and lowering them. We have the balls to critisize the Chinese for their Human Rights issues, and we support torture? Give me a break... :down: Such hypocrisy!

We are SUPPOSED to be the leaders in the Free World. Our President is supposed to set examples for others both home and abroad. And the man condones TORTURE?! Oooh, that's setting a great example. Might as well lump him in with the rest of the low life scum that condone and actualize it. If you heard of someone, say, in Darfur, torturing people, you'd be aghast! You'd scream about Human Rights and sanctity of life and al that.

But Bush says its necessary for the "War of Terror" and it's for the protection of the American people. Well, I call BS. He wraps his rhetoric in the Stars and Stripes and calls it Patriotism. Bull... It's nothing more than the justification of paranoid and delusional thinking.

I wasn't talking to you or about you, with all due respect of course...

I should amplify this. You are not talking about discarding your country like a torn shirt. I say that anyone who doesn't want to be here should quit wasting our time and leave. We'd all be better off for it.

So where did I say that the government is always right?

Locking one up in a cell would be considered just as much torture.

Its BS. Its not a big deal. The definition of torture in my mind means physical harm. none of that is going on here. Its just a physch job.

And now the shocker!!!! It isn't even the target of the Veto!!!

I went looking for the bill, and guess what? Every damn journalist that is reporting the story is 'hiding' the name of the bill so you don't really figure out what is in question. When journalists hide the name of the bill or the actual line in question, it starts raising red flags in my mind that a hyped story is going on. Pretty typical.

The actual statement that got Vetoed was one the only talks about interrogation in Army field manuals. Here is the particular line:

That is the line everyone is jumping on. Nice. Talk about leading a story.

That is not the only reason why it was vetoed. These lines also fall into why it was Vetoed:

Apparently this will aggravate delays in the intelligence community due to delays in the confirmation process caused by this line.

THe above is apparently creating a duplicate office. Nice.

This line would require the office of the president on a time deadline to release all interrogation techniques used by the CIA for AL Qeida to browse at will. SHouldn't this be kept secret from your enemy? Guess Congress thinks not.

If I were president, I would not sign this either.

-S

Yeah, dissent in a Free Speech society is such a waste of time...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/09/wa.../09policy.html

Call it what you will, torture is torture. Because it's packaged up with a number of "other" interrogation methods doesn't make it any less..

"just"?! If you think a "physch job" warrants a "just", then you have not seen enough PTSD cases.

That aside, it is not only psychological. Aside from causing broken/dislocated bones on
occasion as well as drowning and brain damage...
...it causes severe physical pain as well as the traumatic distress.

And this is to people who have not been convicted of any crime and are in the eyes of
the law, innocent.



*edit*

Pffft! I do not oftern agree with you DI, but that is well said.

Threatening to leave is not dissent. It is surrender or abandonment but not dissent.

And you didn't answer my question.

Well said.

-S

Well, it's an end product of dissent.


but certainly not the most constructive or helpful.

The better option would be to change what you do not like, but we are all guilty of not doing that as much as we should attempt to.

Hence my Stephen Decatur quote. You'll notice he didn't say "my country ALWAYS right". What he said is you don't divorce your country because you disagree with some of it's current policies.

Hardly. In the eyes of the law, they should be shot - Geneva convention. AN enemy combatant outside of uniform is to be treated as a spy and put before a firing squad to be shot and killed. Innocent my *ss! :D

And who had their bones dislocated? Never heard of that myself. Link please.

-S

Seems more like a bunch of people complaining about being suppresed to me without any proof that I can see.

I'm all for our god given right to firing squad solution though. I'm tired of hearing how people say we are torturing them when we have the legal right to simply excute them without trial right now.

-S

That looks a little like dismissing off-hand evidence that does not fit your point of view Subman.

Furthermore, saying it's ok because you have a legal right, doesn't mean much when
you have made it a legal right. that's just saying "it's ok because I say it's ok".

Lastly, I suspect you would not apply the same principles when advising Iran how to
deal with any American combatants it might find straying across the boarder.

All I will say is I support waterboarding. If I were to freely express my opinion and say what I am really thinking of some of you folks and your comments here I would likely be banned.

Saying that torture only begins with a physical act is A) Wrong, and B) inapplicable to waterboarding.
It's an intensely physical act.

Oh, and the idea of a god-given right to shoot enemy combatants. Nevermind which god yer talking about, but doesnt this idea of enemy combatants become a little shaky when many of those taken prisoner by US forces were bought from the Northern Alliance?