No, keep it on until the target is down. It's just off during the initial data gathering, because keeping it on might screw the "Estimate course and speed" function. As soon as you have all the basic data, you switch it on and keep it on. I don't even turn it off when switching targets in a convoy, since there's really no need to. Plug in the new data and voila, you have a completely new solution.

Waiting to hear your results :up:

Ahh I see the light!:yep: It's only for the speed estimation that it is switched off! and during a convoy they are all doing the same speed, just have to switch targets get new ship ID, range & set AOB till TDC shows correct target course, would be near the same till they all started to zig zag!:) Well no excuses to avoid putting it off!:doh::D

There you go! Spot on about the convoy, that's exactly why the TDC can remain on. You can even ID the ships beforehand, and the game will remember the ID as long as the ship stays withing certain range from you(don't know what that is, but it never seems to be a problem in a convoy situation). It makes switching targets a lot faster when you don't have to flip through the recognition manual in the middle of an attack :)

Success!!:D This rusty old fart finally gets it!:lol:
One problem I'm having though is speed, each time I have done the Estimate Speed my dial allways shows this ship (Mogami Heavy Cruiser) to be doing 5 to 6 knots.
in the first attempt the speed read 6 knots & the torpedo's just hit the rear end! In the second attempt the speed read 5 knots, I just set it to 9 knots as yours read & this time hit amidships, I tried a third time & the reading was 6 knots again, something is amiss but I don't know what.
This is what I do (I'm sure I got it right):
1) set speed for 1/3rd and hit Z key.
2) go to scope & raise, identify ship, click tick box.
3) lock on, use stadimeter and send to TDC.
4) lower scope, wait for about 1 minute during this time open 4 tubes.
5) raise scope, lock on, use stadimeter, send to TDC, lower scope.
6) go to speed dial & click on "Estimate Speed".
This allways comes to around 6 knots, and I say nuts!:lol:
Any idea what I might be doing wrong, can a setting or mod effect this?
Has the Estimate Speed button changed from version 1.0, when I check the SH4 manual page 38 at the top it reads quite different!
Thanks for all your help Fincuan.:yep:

When using the stadimeter, are you placing the waterline of the image of the ship at the top of its highest mast?

Do you have the position keeper off while making your two observations? (it looks like from your previous comments the answer is yes)

Are you at battlestations? (I don't think this would cause that much error, but your crew is more accurate in calcuations while at battlestations)

You can also click the Estimate Speed button several times to get different estimates from the crew. You might try that and see if all the speeds are around 6 knots.

Anyway, whatever it is it's something minor. You definitely have the basic idea down.

Oh, one more thing. The Estimate Speed button didn't even work until patch 1.3, so ignore the manual. The way you are doing it is correct except for some small issue.

I think there is something wrong with the school . It works in campaign though .

@ Powerthighs:
Yes just as in Fincuan's tutorial shows, ships waterline overlay image on the top mast of the correctly identified ship.:yep:
Definitely, the red light is not on, I only set it on after the speed is calculated.
Probably not, only set for silent running, I'm too used to SH3, there this is not an option, would this make a difference?:oops: I'll give it a try, can someone tell me the hot key please - too lazy to look it up!;)
Thanks, I'll ignore it.:yep:
@ Sober:
I'd like to think that but Fincuan's tutorial even shows the correct speed, maybe I should calculate it a couple of times & get the overall before turning the TDC on.:yep:

Gee I even sound like I know what I'm talking about!!:smug: ..... :88)

Nice to hear it worked! One more member of the manual TDC club then :)

I have no idea what's wrong with your speed estimates, because judging from what you wrote you are doing everything correctly. Do you have the same problem in other single missions and/or the campaign too? Is the course still correct, even though the speed is not?

Estimate speed accuracy
 

If for some reason one of the ranges is wrong, or if both ranges are wrong the estimate speed button will be wrong. Because of that I always estimate speed from my plot and forget all about that. In practice the most accurate way to estimate speed is from your plot using the 3 minute rule, 6 minute rule or the WernerSobe method of timing how long the ship takes to travel its own length. Werner's method depends on accurate identification of the ship, though, so it also is subject to error.

Like most things American, the conventional manual targeting method uses multiple steps, each of which is capable of introducing fatal error into the process, each of which must be perfectly executed in order for the torpedo to impact the target. I find stadimeter errors particularly vexing and don't even use the blasted thing outside of 2500 yards. The basic problem with standard US manual targeting procedure is that it is not sufficiently error tolerant. In combat errors are a given.

That is why my default approach technique is the Dick O'Kane procedure, a modfiication of the Fast 90 of U-Boat fame, but adapted for American TDC without the PK. The reason the Germans had a higher hit percentage of torpedoes shot is that they understood that in combat the most important characteristic of a successful strategy is error tolerance.

My tutorial on the Dick O'Kane technique is fraught with error, as arronblood correctly roasted me about later. But in spite of my ham-handedness both torpedoes impacted the target within 20 feet of their aiming point.

In order to be successful you must first know how much error you can tolerate, compare that to the amount of error you have (in your best judgement) and shoot or don't shoot (or shoot a wider spread if you're not getting another chance), For conventional targeting, this means extensive use of the attack screen to ensure that your solution is somewhere reasonable compared to the actual target position, heading and speed.

With conventional US targeting you must accurately determine target ID, range (stadimeter), speed and AoB. With Dick O'Kane you need only target course and speed. That errors increase catastropically with the number of parameters needed to obtain a solution. Is it any wonder US subs had so many more misses by a 3/1 ratio?

Dick O'Kane had it right. The system was designed to guarantee unacceptable error. And he was the acknowleged master of conventional targeting technique.

Amen! :)

This is one of the best threads so far covering the subject.

There are few things more rewarding than see the eels detonate were you xpect them to after a manual calc.:yep:

Regards

/OB

You have been a great help Fincuan, if not for you I may have given up!:yep:
Hi Rockin Robbins, I have downloaded your quick 90 method & will give that a go later, in SH3 that was my main method, I would set everything up at 40 degrees (Port or Starboard), when the ship came into my scope at that bearing I would press the auto button & it would then follow the ship with the correct gyro angles, I would then launch a torpedo at around 20 degrees before & if it was a dud or not enough to sink it I could the launch another while the gyro angle was still ok!:yep:
I always use the 3.10 minute rule & this works out well with metric, but not so easy with imperial, would have to multiply the answer (in yards) by 0.9144 to get meters, then just shift decimal place to get speed in knots. This Torpedo school mission you don't have anywhere near enough time to do this!:doh: I will use this in the campaigns though unless the ship is too close, sometimes happens with TC.
Well that's about it, a little more practice & I can start my first campaign.:up:
Many thanks to all for your patience teaching this old dog new tricks, especially Fincuan.:D
Cheers.

That's very much true, and is also the primary reason why I never use the function in campaign. One small mistake and bam, your solution is screwed. The Dick O'Kane method is a nice tool to have in the toolbox, but for me it's not the primary one. Now that my current career is well into 1944, I mostly find myself in night surface attacks against enemy convoys, something where the O'Kane method just doesn't suit well. If you are to engage three merchants travelling in a line 800 meters apart from each other while keeping your bow pointed at the closest escort, you pretty much have to use the TDC. Developing the solution over time and gathering the basic data with the radar, while using the stadimeter only as a confirmation, guarantees that by the time the target is within torpedo range, the solution is nearly flawless.

If it's not a multiple target situation, or it's just two targets very close to each other, then the Dick O'Kane method is indeed much easier and more straightforward. A few other situations where I find myself using it are sonar-only attacks against escorted targets, when you can't ping to get the range, and radar-guided surface attacks in extremely bad visibility(<500 meters). Especially in the latter situation the TDC is almost useless, because you can plot everything on the map but there's no easy and precise way to feed the data into the TDC. With the O'Kane method you don't obviously have to input anything but the speed.

I just found what I was doing wrong, stupid me, I was bringing down the overlay ship and placing it's waterline on the top of the mast but forgot that I have to place the waterline of the actual ship on the scopes line!:88) How did I make that fundamental blunder I don't know, even in SH3 I had to do that, although with the 3 minute rule I was also calculating range differently as well.:damn: Can't get over this, what a goose!!:88) Oh well at least I now know!:yep:

No, you don't have to place the waterline of the actual ship on the scope's line :) In SH3 you had to, but with the stadimeter in SH4 it's not necessary. Note that I don't even have a scope line to place it on.