For reference (largely my own):

AirDepthCharge:
MinEF:100
MaxEF:200
AP:0
MinRadius:1
MaxRadius:25

Bomb500kg:
MinEF:100
MaxEF:200
AP:35
MinRadius:2
MaxRadius:30

Bomb250kg:
MinEF:80
MaxEF:150
AP:20
MinRadius:1
MaxRadius:25

Bomb100kg:
MinEF:40
MaxEF:100
AP:10
MinRadius:0.5
MaxRadius:20

AirTorpedo:
MinEF:100
MaxEF:200
AP:15
MinRadius:0.5
MaxRadius:20

HedgeHog:
MinEF:50
MaxEF:100
AP:20
MinRadius:2
MaxRadius:4

While bombs could be expected to have AP capability in the usual way we think of it (not the game way), there is no reason for a hedgehog to have this at all (the ability to penetrate armor due to Kinetic Energy, and I don't think they used shaped charges). The reason presumably is to model the increased damage due to contact detonation.

None the less, as you can see from the bombs, they also have wide areas of effect. As a result, you take AP enhanced damage even if the bomb is a near miss.

The bombs might need reworking, too, looking at the values, lol. And we all know that damage to the sub in surface combats shows they are little battleships, my DC control teams fix internal damage due to 5 inch shells faster than a DD can dish them out.

Maybe the weapons are right, and the subs are grossly too strong...

tater

OK, so it was my understanding that within MinRadius the damage went to the total sub hitpoints.

It was also my understanding that when total hitpoints=0, the sub sinks.

So I made a new DC. I set minradius to 9, and max to 18. Otherwise stock.

I got a good, near contact hit. Did a ton of damage to 1 compartment, otherwise, pretty similar to stock (which would have damaged 3 compartments probably)..

I save. Exit and check save. The damage show for hull integrity (which is a % of total hitpoints? 0.00000

When I tested a super DC, and even stock, a close hit changed the damage= to 0.6666 or so.

Wonder what's going on... I had expected the larger minradius to mean that hits would take out total hitpoints from farther away.

tater

From another thread, but instructive:

Der Teddy Bar Said:

I hope this assists you some.

How Zones and 3D objects interact

The scenario…
We have 2 zones that are 20m long x 10m high x 3m deep which are directly behind each other and each zone can only be directly ‘hit’ from one side.

The armour value on Zone 1 is set to 50 so that no 4” shell, even at maximum HP will cause any damage.

The armour value on Zone 2 is set to 15 so that any hit from 4” shell, even a minimum HP will cause damage.

The blast radius for the 4” shell is set to Min 2m, Max 10m, the actual shell hit/s are HP 25 & Blast Radius of 10 metres.

The hits…
When the shell hits Zone 1 – The shell hits to Zone 1 result in no damage to Zone 1 or Zone 2 as the armour value had not been defeated.

When the shell hits Zone 2 – The shell hits to Zone 2 result in damage to Zone 2 as the armour has been defeated; BUT the armour only gets checked once and because Zone 2 is within the damage radius Zone 2 has now been damaged!

The same scenario occurs between the 3D object and the zone.

With the submarine’s armour value at 25, if a shell, in this case a 4” with an AP of 25 were to hit near by then in most instances this will result in damage being taken by the submarine and the nearby zone if the zone is less than 4 metres from the blast point.

RE: in most instances this will result in damage being taken; The reason I say this is because the AP value is dynamic but based upon the specified AP value.

The in game AP value is AP x PT + HPValue/ALF; The PT value is randomly generated and can be a + or – and from 0 up to the Zones.cfg specified value.

PT = Penetration Threshold=0.2 ; ALF = Armor Level Factor=4

The results of this mean that for the 4” AP shell with the AP value of 25 and a HP range of 10 to 25, then using the maximum PT values the armour that will be penetrated for each HP

HP ~ -2PT ~0PT ~+2PT
25 ~ 26.25 ~ 31.25 ~ 36.25
24 ~ 26.00 ~ 31.00 ~ 36.00
23 ~ 25.75 ~ 30.75 ~ 35.75
22 ~ 25.50 ~ 30.50 ~ 35.50
21 ~ 25.25 ~ 30.25 ~ 35.25
20 ~ 25.00 ~ 30.00 ~ 35.00
19 ~ 24.75 ~ 29.75 ~ 34.75
18 ~ 24.50 ~ 29.50 ~ 34.50
17 ~ 24.25 ~ 29.25 ~ 34.25
16 ~ 24.00 ~ 29.00 ~ 34.00
15 ~ 23.75 ~ 28.75 ~ 33.75
14 ~ 23.50 ~ 28.50 ~ 33.50
13 ~ 23.25 ~ 28.25 ~ 33.25
12 ~ 23.00 ~ 28.00 ~ 33.00
11 ~ 22.75 ~ 27.75 ~ 32.75
10 ~ 22.50 ~ 27.50 ~ 32.50

If we have the situation of a 3D object (armour value of 25) which has 2 Zones (armour level of 15) where Zone 1 is larger than the 3D object and Zone 2 is smaller than the 3D object then this is how, assuming that the blast radius is not large enough to reach the ‘other’ zone, that the damage would or would not occur.

If the 4” shell with the HP value of 10 and a PT of -2 hit Zone 1, then the zone and the 3D object would take damage. However if the 4” shell with the HP value of 10 and a PT of -2 hit the 3D object where Zone 2 is located then neither the 3D object or Zone 2 would be damaged.

If the 3D object was the conning tower and Zone 2 was the Zone/s TowerWatch and/or Flak then the crew would not be affected.

Tater, do you have any test missions you've made for checking things out?

If so, can you post them and tell me where to install them? I have the mod installed now, so I could run some tests and post the observations for you.

I might update the beta in a little while with some new things---like early war DC throwers using type 95s instead of the big type 2s.

I'll put a test mission in the JSGME when I do.

tater

So if the minradius is at 9, maybe it's like a wave effect, greatest damage at 9.

blast<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<9>>>>>>>>>>>>18
min damage<<<<<<<<Max damage>>>>>>No Damage
have you tried setting the minradius to 1? I'm too lazy right now to reread everything.
I really hope you get this working right!

Actually, what is needed is this. There is a threshhold at which no damage gets done at all.

Subs have armor of 24 or 25 depending on the sub. The ALF is 4, so you need to do 101 to do any damage at all.

If the MinRadius is set to 5 and the Max is 25, you can easily see what happens.

Say the DC does 200 when it explodes (randomly generated between 170 and 230 for a stock DC). Out to 5m it will do 200. The sub gets damaged. Between 5 and 25m, the damage drops. It's 0 at 25m, so assuming it drops linearly that means that 10m from the edge of the 100% circle (which is 5m in radius) the damage should be 100. That's 15m from the blast. So slightly below 15m, it will do 101, and actually do damage to the sub. This radius will vary based upon the random number pulled between the min and max EF values. of the charge did 202 damage, it would be exactly 101 at 15m, for example.

The current version is coming soon for testing, and includes this. I've actually upped the damage, because I still feel they are too weak up close at stock value. We'll see in testing.

This version includes 4 new DCs (same as previous version), 4 roll racks (same), 2 new K guns (one for type 95, one 110kg type 2), and 4 new Y guns (2 type 9s, 2 110kg type 2s).

This has allowed more complex evolutions of DC capability even though the charges are not terribly different in capability. Not only will the type of DC throw vary by month for a class, but the throwers also have different DC loads.

Since 2 of the same type of ship can have different cfg dates, you might have 1 Minekaze attacking you with 36 DCs, while the one helping him has only 30, for example.

I'll try and get this out the door later today or this evening.

For now I have not used the AP idea, I'd like to exhaust "standard" DC techniques first.


tater

Cool on part one and thanks on part 2- lot easier than posting one for download:up:

Using this mod
 

First SH4 career using manual targetting.
Using ICL 0.78 plus IJN 0.9, lots of eye & ear candy.
Dec 10 1941 first patrol out of Manila, NE of Luzon about midnight i found a huge almost stionary task force.
Sank 4 passenger carriers, 2 light cruisers & 1 destroyer.
Was depth charged through the attack 5 or 6 times but not damaged at all.
Thought i got off lightly.
Got silver star.
Thank you for your mods.

David H

IJN DC Mod, version 0.91

DOWNLOAD:
http://mpgtext.net/subshare/632IJN%20DCs%20v%200.91.rar

This version includes 2 new K guns (one for type 95, one for a 110kg type 2), and 4 new Y guns (2 type 9s, 2 110kg type 2s).

DCRack_TYPE95_1 = 18 Type 95 DCs (100kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE95_2 = 10 Type 95 DCs (same DC, lower load carried)
DCRack_TYPE02_1 = 18 Type 2 DCs (110kg warhead)
DCRack_TYPE02_2 = 6 Type 95/2 DCs -- parachute retarded 95s at ~100kg (I left them damage light to avoid sterns getting blown off on shallow drops)

KGun_JP_02 = 6 Type 95 DCs (100kg warhead)
KGun_JP_03 = 10 Type 95 DCs

YGun_JP_02 = 6 Type 95 DCs (3 per side of Y) (100kg warhead)
YGun_JP_03 = 10 Type 95 DCs (5 per side of Y) (100kg warhead)
YGun_JP_04 = 8 Type 2 DCs (4 per side of Y) (110kg warhead)
YGun_JP_05 = 12 Type 2 DCs (6 per side of Y) (110kg warhead)

For each DC:

Type 95:
Fall rate: 1.9 (1 for the retarded version)
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 170
MaxEF: 220
AP:0
MinRadius: 4
MaxRadius: 16 (~100 damage at 10m)
(MaxRadius = 11 for retarded version, again, to minimize blowups)

Type 2 (110kg):
Fall rate: 3
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 190
MaxEF: 230
AP:0
MinRadius: 4
MaxRadius: 16.5 (~100 damage at 10m)

Type 2 (162kg):
Fall rate: 3
Depth precision: 7
MinEF: 200
MaxEF: 340
AP:0
MinRadius: 4.5
MaxRadius: 25 (~100 damage at 15m)

Let me know how it works.

What 0.91 will do to gameplay:
The "easier" gameplay still applies in terms of the number of DCs that will be dropped on you before the escorts run out. As for lethality... vs stock, I think you will still see less damage. Vs RFB and TM, you will see more damage---but still far fewer DCs dropped into the bargain. The early war DCs are now about what you are used to in RFB/TM. The later war (1943+) large type 2 DCs are more lethal. Their min damage is slightly higher than what you are used to, and the max is 50% higher.

One-hit kills are still extremely unlikely in my testing with the type 95s and light type 2s. They are a little more likely with the large type 2 DCs.

Overall, I think this really plays best with TM, or another mod that might improve the sensors. If you are using TM with sensors turned down (other than visual at night), I would reccomend trying "stock" TM, with the DC mod as the lethality mitigating mod instead of nerfed sensors.

There may be a problem with the Type02_2 DC not doing hull damage. I'm messign with it. OTOH, that DC is amazingly rare even in my campaign (it's the slow falling one). It was really put in in anticipation of some smaller subchasers not yet built.

I was testing hedgehogs last night. I know the IJN didn't use them, but I had wondered about getting merchants to use them, and also about the depth setting. I know they are contact, but their sim has the depth set to 2500, and the aim error at 300. I think the idea is that if they don't hit something, they'll blow at the set depth. Where this would be useful in tricking the AI would be a hedgehog that looks like a DC rack (or k gun, etc), but fires a single hedgehog bomb that happens to point at the DC model, etc. The idea is that the game thinks it's a Hhog, but it's really a DC. Then we dump the contact fuse, and the DC goes off at the aimed depth regardless of what the AI thinks. Set it to 45m +-15, and you have a RL IJN DC.

Sadly, merchants won't fire them.

Another possible Hhog mod I'm looking at is this. Replace the 3d model with a mortar model (can't be too hard, mortars are fairly simple looking). Have a Hhog that shoots just 1 bomb at a time. Set the range to a couple thousand yards. We'd then have an IJN ASW mortar.

That's why I wanted Hhog to fire from merchants.

tater

The sim file for the ship has to be set up for them to use the DD's Tater
 

I can only see what I see with S3D. They ahve the same (in S3D) looking "cmdr_AIShip" stuff.

Course I don't actually want merchants to make runs, more just fire them off.

Note that I can change the unit type of a merchant to 0, 1, 2, 3 or 4, and it will happy become an escort and use them, with no sim changes at all.

What is the part you think controls this outside of unit type? If you take a DD, and set it to a unit type that is NOT 0 to 4, it won't use them, either.

tater

You would have to compair the 2 files one from a DD and one from the ship
 

Well in all my merchant DC tests I mod the merchant both to include the DC launcher, and I throw in a new sns file that adds the top of the line hydrophone and sonar devices, so I'm sure they'll see me getting in their way noisily ;)

I just opened the 2 sims (a merchant and a DD) and there are no differences in what S3D shows that seem obvious to me.

It seems controled by the UnitType parameter, not the sim, IMO.

In other words, the cmdr_AIShip ship is the same for all, and whereever cmdr_AIShip actually is, THAT is the file that decides. It compares the unit type and decides how to act. If the unit type is 0-4, it acts like an escort. I can do the same with a BB. throw some DC racks on Yamato's stern (Musashi got such racks refitted to her fantail in RL), and she doesn't use them. Change her type to 4, she's a big, fat DD and acts like one.

No sim changes at all.

Wonder if type=13 will drop DCs (aux cruiser)?

tater