Germany lost the war first when they engaged the Soviet Union and later as the US entered the war. The Type XXI would have been needless if Hitler had not decided to challenge the soviet union, because IMO he could have starved Britain with the older U-Boots. But as soon as a new front was open (East front), and then as the industrial power of the US entered the war, it was possible to put new ships on the sea faster than they were sunk. Even if Type XXI's had been available from the start:down:

Note that had germany not engaged the soviet union, many resources (Steel and heavy industry) could have been used to build U-Boots. I bet that if instead of buidling up a heavier Army and aditional tanks between 1940 and june 1941, they had built and trained the crew of 200 new U-Boots from june 1940 onwards (When french bases became available and France surrendered), by Dec 7 1941 when the US decided to enter the war, Britain could have already asked for negotiations. After all, they nearly starved Britain with only 30 U-Boots:hmm:

The allied losses would have been much higher if more of XXI's could have been produced earlier in the war. BUT, I dont think that it would have made difference to the outcome of the battle of Atlantik.

Two reasons

1) Like in every situation, the enemy adapts to a new threat. New uboats -> new ASW weapons.

2) And even with XXI boat, the allies would have had their factories building up the ships at faster pace than they were destroyed by the germans.

Exactly, Germany stretched itself to thin with the new front and allied shipping was being pumped out at a much higher rate than earlier in the war.

RDP

IMO The allied Co ordinated ASW systems aircraft support groups DF
and other ELINT etc. would still have defeated The type XXI

however the XXI was indeed a fundamental advance in Submarine
design. as such it influenced boats of the next 60 yrs. with its
emphasis on submerged performance and endurance.


so no the XXI wasnt MOOT at all, I just feel the result was inevitable.

I should expect so. Even some of the improved 688s are nearly 30 years old. That's Cold War technology.

The SSN-21 and Virginia classes are a different story.

Yes, as you mentioned M, it had an influence for years to come.

http://www.ussnautilus.org/images/bwunder.jpg
Uss Nautilus

RDP

Perhaps SSN-571 borrowed some upon some ideas from hull designs, [the design did not last very long due to the advent of the Albacore hull] but the Walther plants and the nuclear steam plant are very different designs. In that respect, the XXI was, at best, a minor contributor to nuclear propulsion.

The Soviets, on the other hand, took a very keen interest. Both the Wiskey and Foxtrot classes were, essentially, upgraded XXIs.

I guess I meant in the indirect sense of the priority the development of
nuclear propulsion is really just an extension of the emphasis on the value
of underwater endurance, the albacore hull an extension of the emphasis
on underwater performance, and modern targeting sonars a development
of the priority in the XXI to enable submerged shooting solutions.

not direct technological influence as such more design philosophy and
emphasis.
MM

Yeah, I was more going on hull design versus propulsion systems :yep:

RDP

I think where we as speculating historians always miss everytime on
the type XXI what ifs is this.

Have any of you ever considered in the context of the times
that we speculate on, the Potential of the type XXI to aid in winning
the war (or a few engagements) as an ASW platform itself.

it would have been the best of the lot at submerged prosecution
quite in a league of its own.

MM

She was the first real combat submarine that was meant to dwell in the deep and not just retreat to it once in danger.

from uboat.net

In relation to your point.

RDP

Soviet Union would eventually attack Germany and Hitler knew that. It was wise in his decision to atack. The main reason for defat was the just misjudgement of soviet terrain. Please note Moscow was about to fall in the first blitzkrieg.

After the fall of France, tons of tanks and armored French vehicles have been captured by Germans. But it was not still not enough for the Soviet front. The front was so huge and losses were enormous.

Wasn't possible? Anything is possible... in fact, the UK came within 4 weeks of total collapse due to lack of supplies. That was courtesy of the effort against the supply lines.

Well yes and no. May be if Soviet Union had attacked first -which is doubtful because Stalin didn't really want anything in the west, and had seen how France and Britain had been crushed out- the political scenary would have been different. And anyway, by June 1941 the soviets had obviously not yet attacked, so Hitler would have had time to defeat England with a larger U-Boot fleet.

But like CCCIP said, real historians hate what-ifs :hmm:

Disagree:
Yes of course this is a race, just like in the air for aircraft technology and on the land armor technology. Germans were very good in all aspects, that is why war has extended so far and that is why we are negotiating in what ifs.

Read the posts, even with the insufficient armada, Germans managed to thrill British and made them consider a white peace. Also, US ships were constantly sent to the area to aid British in U-boat sweep. ıf the Isle was isolated, how in the earth, US would send ships across atlantic?

So, they could have bleed Britain to dry and force them for peace. It was highly possible. Hitler never intended an invasion, all his intensions were to push british out of war.