I just don't see how Bismarck would have an edge. It was out-gunned and far less armored than the Yamato (albeit both ships were very resistant to damage due to heave compartmentalization); they both had equally deficient radar compared to Allied counterparts - though both had excellent optics, which probably would give the advantage to Yamato with her heavier and somewhat longer-range guns. The Bismarck, being slightly faster than the Yamato - but only just - would have a bit more latitude in choosing position, but really not a whole lot.

Again, I don't think the hypothetical engagement would ever happen. If it was the Yamato and not the Hood/PoW that Bismarck met in Denmark Strait, it would simply take advantage of its superior speed and retreat behind a smoke screen. I can't picture a German heavy unit fighting a slower but better-armed opponent by their own choice. If Bismarck was caught, I think the match would be akin to that between Scharnhorst and Duke of York (and her consorts) - even the difference in main gun caliber and armor levels there was about the same. We all know how that one ended.

I totally agree with Dean. These comparisons are nice, but usually forget the purposes of each ship. Bismarck class Battleships were designed to be fast and able to engage the older battleships the RN put in service to escrot convoys, i.e. the Royal Sovereign and Queen Elizabeth classes, while the smaller armoured cruisers and battlecruisers like Prinz Eugen or Scharnhorst would meanwhile kill the merchants and destroyers. (Source: Von Müllenheim-Rechberg, fire director of the Bismarck, survivor of her sinking and author of "Battleship Bismarck"). So basically a heavier version of the old german raider concept: Able to outgun anything he can't outrun. In fact, the german Plan Z -never finished- called for a series of Super-Bismarck class battleships, which were to be the real sea-superiority units, but whose keel never got laid.

The british Nelson and King George V series were conceived in the shadow of the London Treaty, and anyway the brits had by then, after WW1, already no visible enemy fleet they should be able to annihilate with a vast superiority. The german pocket battleships were obviously no match for the KGVs, and the Bismarck was still under secret developement. So the RN relaxed much her standards in terms of BB power, and as a result the more versatile but inferior KGV class came out (Armed precipitously with smaller guns than initially intended when war started and no larger barrel producers where available)

The Yamato class was instead conceived as a pure battleship. Much slower than others, but with a heavier punch, like the Iowas. Japan knew that the US fleet was to be their main enemy, and as such went the route of bigger units.

My 2 cents

History Channel had an episode of Dogfights on last week that dealt with the sinking of the Bismarck. There was some usual History Channel cheesiness (calling the Bismarck the most powerful battleship afloat....this thread has clearly shown why it wasn't!) but it has some nice CG scenes of the Bismarck and Prinz Eugen attacking the Hood, and the Swordfish bombers attacking the Bismarck. Also had interviews with guys who were on Bismarck, and the last living survivor of the Hood. It was an interesting way to kill an hour.

It reruns on Saturday May 26 at 10:00 AM. They also have an episode with the Yamato and American task force Taffy 3 in the Battle of the Leyte Gulf on Wednesday May 23 at 12:00 PM and 6:00 PM.

1v1 fantasy engagements might fit well for ships in a 3d rate navy that could only sortie 1-2 capital ships at a time (the KM), but not for any "real navy" engagements. The IJN was grossly superior to the KM in terms of having the capability to actually operate at sea. You'd have to give the drop to Yamato and the IJN since they could refuel at sea underway and wait for Bismark and the KM at ports where they'd HAVE to go to refuel.

As was shown in the Bismark's sortie, any damage at all is pretty fatal since she then has to make a break for port, even for a hole in the bunker oil tanks.

So in any plausible RL interaction the IJN would disassemble the KM in detail IMO, no contest. OTOH, if you stuck to the 1v1 thing, it's a die roll, basically. The starting engagement ranges would depend on the sea and weather, for example. Neither side would know the capabilities of the other ship exactly. The choice of running in to engage more closely, or standing out at max range would be primarily a doctrinal decision. So Yamato would definitely try and keep the range as long as possible and hope for a lucky hit, that was part of their reasoning regarding the weapons systems on Yamato. Bismark's speed, and more importantly RANGE at speed would really matter. Any drawn out running battle would put Yamato at a disadvantage. But as I said above, if you saw Yamato, it means you'd see the rest of BBDiv 1, and likely the entire Combined Fleet.

i agree, not sure I'd call the KM 3rd rate though. Well sort of...the men were well trained and the ships were good...but unbalanced maybe. It was only really a commerce raiding and coastal force centred on a very potent submarine arm. Japan had a very worthy navy. :up:

I personally don't doubt the Bismarck was an excellent design, and I think it's combat sortie deserves to be legendary, but some of the legend has ended up infiltrating into the popular mind as some sort of 'supership', or at least super-tough-ship, which it was not.

Remember, for example, that the opponent it won a fight against was a battlecruiser with deficient top armor (at worst, you could say Bismarck's kill was a fluke - I'm sure it would have still won, but it's likely that the fatal penetration on the Hood was a very lucky one); and a battleship that was still working up - and managed to leave the fight just fine with some damage (while we often forget that Bismarck took damage in that fight as well).

Then the final fight where the Bismarck is often quoted for toughness - sure it took an hour and a half to go down, but we often forget that its gun director and bridge were destroyed in the first minutes, and the main armament was silenced shortly thereafter. We also often forget that the number of 14 and 16" shells it took is not only because of said toughness, but also because of the fact that for some reason, the British battleships moved in to relatively short range and pummeled it at a low angle - meaning that the shells struck right against the main armor belt. Had they fired from longer range and used a high angle, hitting the deck rather than the sides, it's likely that the Bismarck would be destroyed much faster.

The KM was a 3d rate NAVY. The men and ships were not 3d rate. I'm talking about the overall capability to project power. The KM was simply not even in the 2d tier of navies in the 40s. To get into the 2d tier you'd need CVs, and far more ships than the KM had.

So the US and RN were 1st rate in the 40s (by even late '44 the US was almost in it's own class, frankly), IJN was 2d rate (Numbers of ships being the major distinction between 1 and 2). The MarNat and Italian Navy were perhaps lower rung 2d rate navies. As you said, the KM was basically a brown water navy that happened to have a few big ships.

CCIP is right. One other thing not to neglect: AA. The Stringbags that began the end of Bismark should have been obliterated. Lack of AA, particularly for a ship forced to dash out past the RAF was a major design failing. Bismark had only a little more AA capability than a late-war US DD, lol.

Look at this webside , a hole bunche of info (Nihon Kaigun) :rock:

Who would win?

My gato submarine positioned just right with a full load of fish of course :)

I had heard years ago that Scharnhorst hit the Glorious at around 26K
yards, but I don't remember what the source was. Perhaps the INRO
article (I know I read it a few years back), perhaps someone making a
claim on the internet?? If Warspite can get a hit at 26K, why not
Scharnhorst? Of course, I don't exactly have proof that Warspite
actually hit at 26K either, just what the history books say.

But at a range of 26K, the target is just over the horizon, so I think
it's hull is still visible from a fire control director high up in the
ship. Once the range gets large enough that the hull is no longer
visible, hits become almost a miracle because it becomes almost
impossible to determine where your shells landed relative to the target,
so corrections are not possible.

As for radar fire control, I think I remember reading that Duke of York
detected Scharnhorst at something like 38K yards, but couldn't get an
accurate fix (good enough for shooting) until 25K yards, and didn't open
fire until 12K yards, at which point she scored a hit on the opening
salvo.

At Surigao straight, I think I read that the US radars (those ships with
the Mk 8, anyway) could have opened fire on the Japanese at something
like 35K yards, but waited until they were at 25K, and then started
scoring hits at 20+K yards. If this was true, it would be interesting
to know why they waited? Was it because they knew the odds of getting a
hit a 35K was so low it wasn't worth it? Or was it because (like the
Duke of York) the detections achieved just weren't accurate enough until
the range was 25K or less? Or was it because they wanted the Japanese
to move farther into the trap? Or was it that they waited in the hopes
that the ships with the Mk 3 radar might be able to contribute if they
waited (as it turns out, the Mk 3 ships were pretty useless in that
battle)?

Finally, there was a case where 2 Iowas were shooting at a Japanese DD
at something like 34-36K yards. I think they were using aerial
spotting, rather than radar, but I'm not sure. In any event, they
didn't get any hits, but they supposedly did get some straddles.


So, I think it is possible. 26K is reasonable. 40+K isn't.

No, it was the Scharnhorst at Glorious 26,500.

Anyway, Bismarck wouldn't likely fight its allied flagship, eh?

If it somehow would, the range difference would not matter. Its highly unlikely that any engagement would be fought over 25,000, so Bismarcks less range would not be an issue. Even if Yamato would open fire at 45,000 or so, it would not hit anything, Bismarck is still 4-5 knots faster and would get in range in no time. Bismarck would how ever have the privelage of chooseing when to engage, or if to run away.

At 20,000 or so when an engagement seems more likely, I beilve Yamato would be in its zone of imunity, meaning Bismarck would propobly need to go even closer.

Yamatos main arnament conist of 9 18,1'' guns, while Bismarcks is 8 15'', so Yamato have a lot heavier broadside.

On the other hand Bismarck could fire almost twice as fast, and Bismarcks turret layout (4x2) was choosed because of the better spread of the salvoes. Yamato has the 3x3, wich is worse. German gunnery is also supposed to be better, while the fire control is about the same, altough I guess Yamato has better seakeeping.

I don't think Bismarck could take that kind of beating that Yamato could dish out at range, but in a lucky foggy day if it could get close and supprise....

No the article posted says they are practically (within error) a tie. Both ships had good crews, though the Scharnhorst had the edge in fire control and optics...Warspite had the superb 15 inch guns.

Superb guns, in WWI..... And while talking about 15''/42 Mk. I... they had a really bad range compared to other battleships. Warspites hit was at about 20 degrees elevation.