I wasn't offended Letum. I've always worked under the precept that only I can allow others to offend me. I was trying to put myself in the shoes of others and since I'm not allowed there I will stay out. No offense.

Glad to hear theres no hard feelings! :()1:

You quote Behaviorism wrong here, that is not true. The imagination of a future penalty for a future offence that has not been committed yet psychologically works not the same way like a real penalty for a past offence. Also important is that between act and consequence as little time as possible is passing. weeks or months later, and the n even running thorugh several levels of court hierarchies does not help. All this espeically true for youngsters who due to puberty systemitcally test the limits they can get away with, and try to see how far they can go without being called to responsibility.

Eventually the imagination of a future penalty for a future deed can have an effect only when the real penalty for a past offence at least once or twice has been experienced. If it has, then this is what is called the learning experience (which in behavioral theory is nothing else but manipulation of behavioral patterns by rewards and pentlies). Behaviorism has parallels to an engineer's approach.

If you know a warehouse detective, ask him about his experiences with juvenile thiefs. His tales will kill many well-meant illusions about pedagogy very quickly.

If you wish to help youngster not going wrong again, give them a feelable penalty that really is sufficently aversive a stimulus, but do not make it tough as to wanting to brake their character. If you suspend the sentence, they learn a different message (as long as the police and the parents do not impress them sufficiently). They will learnt that they can get away with it. Vey bad lesson.

Concerning loosing a job while being sentenced, what is your argument? Letting somebody get away with phanatsized "pernalties" so that he does not feel negative conseqeunces from his criminal deed? Well, he better thinks about loosing his job before he commits his crime. If my dog does something that is forbidden (peeing in the house), I do not give him a cookie for sure.

Maybe that costs money. Okay, bring it up, or accept a failing system. Quality has it's price. the current legal systems, especially in the field of youngsters, is a total failure, at least here in Germany. The system does not hold a deterring effect.

I have not said that, I said exactly the opposite, somewhat!!! I said a penalty is not meant to brake a fist-time juvenile offender, let's say a thief, and that he should not go to jail for months and years, but maybe for just a half a week or a week, so that he gets a taste of it. for many 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 year old, that could be an experience that makes an impact, but does not damage their psychological future developement.

Also read my last reply above ,(which came after your posting, so no hard feelings).

If there is no aversive conseqeunce after a thief is caught, he will learn: "I can steal and get away with it". Again, a bad lesson that is. the negative quality of the consuequence must be felt, unconditonally, and as fast as possible.

Sorry guys, but I had to deal with this kind of theories for years, I am no fan of behaviorism, by far not, but i must admit that on some issues the data it collected is simply overwhelming so that even different schools of psychology have stopped to oppose it in these areas - except pedagogy. If in a legal system schoolchildren start competitons of how often they can manage to get picked up by the police during one sem,estre, that system's deterrent efect is nil. Zero. Rien. Nada. Non-existant. We have had extreme cases were the pedagogical system gave over 40 suspended penalties to juveniles before they reached the age of 18. Here it is neither about doing justice, or helping a struggling young man/girl, but it is ideological tren ch warfare by which pedagogy tries to enforce itself being seen as the proven, winning system. The statistic is totally unambigious on the future fates of such person. Most of them end up in making a criminal career of constantly growing seriousness.

I know. I didn't mean to imply that. Its a new paragraph meant to go on with agreeing with you. The bit about throwing kids in jail witout question was meant as just an aside to my own views, but otherwise I'm in full agreement with you to the extent that you can see in the rest of my post.

Ah, okay, I see now that I understood the context in a wrong way. I apologize if you felt slammed. I got it differently when reading it the first times.

Accepted. And actually after I read your response I noticed that my wording could easily be misinterpreted.

But all is well in never never land again.:up:

But I love your response.

I have not said that, I said exactly the opposite,... somewhat!!!

I find the "somewhat" funny.:p

I didn't said the opposite word by word , but expressed what I meant with "the opposite" more implicitly, indirectly, I think. But maybe it is just my limited competence to master this English language.

No you're pretty good with English, unlike most native english speakers.:roll:

The more languages you have the better they say.