'funny, i seem to recall you praising tater's "good attitude" (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=109595) and encouraging his efforts...

and who said anyone is being "forced" to use a mod? but if everyone doesn't blow sunshine up your a$$ then you pick-up all your toys and go home?? tell me, who really is the one here with the "snobbish attitude"???

Exactly right! In my entire time playing SH3, vanilla and GWX, I sank exactly one BB, no CV, no CA, and 2 or 3 CL...That's in hundreds of hours of patrolling.

In SH4, first patrol out of Cavite, I sank 2 CA and seriously wounded a Kongo. Yeah, it was fun, but it won't be the 4th or 5th time it happens...at least not for me.

Good post!!!!

To clarify, I was referring to you (having a point, I mean), sorry I did it in such a half-assed way. :p

By the way, we had long and hard discussions in the RUb team forum, and even longer and harder discussions with WaW and NYGM, on the subject of "why are tonnages easy to get?" - and they still are.

Beery had a fantastic answer of "this game is a U-boat ace simulator" (as opposed to just a U-boat simulator), and I still basically stand by it. Many issues regarding the ease-of-sinking also stem from the AI, which I'm sure in SHIV will be a little better, but it's still an AI; it acts artificially and even in the best conditions, once you know what you're doing - the AI's behaviour normally won't surprise you that much.

So as far as answers, all the way from SHIII there were ideas of reducing traffic, better varying traffic routes, setting up more efficient enemy patrol patterns, getting rid of easily-exploitable 'features' and adding more nuances in detection, damage modelling and weapons modelling for the player to worry about in general.

As I said, the key should be not to make it hard for the player universally, but to make the player work for his kills and pay for his mistakes correctly. It might sound like just a gameplay issue, but realism is right up there too. I think that's right at the centre of all 'realism modding' - putting more accurate restraints on what a player can and can't (or shouldn't) get away with.

Good greif as much time as ive spent dismanteling stock SH3, NYGM and GWX, i could probably write an essay on why tonnage scores are high.



Just as an aside on the topic of this thread in general, of the three choices a person has that i orginally mentioned. I excercise all three constantly. I didn't just say that, ive been doing just that for the last few years. Using a mod, and liking some parts of it, but not other parts is how i got into learning more about how to mod the game myself. Ill say straight up, i dont mod for the public. I mod for myself, first and foremost, and share what i did out of nothing more then good willl, not as a mandantory community service who's demands must be obeyed.

Sorry to say but you seem to be the one with the snobbish attitude by going by with this post and some other posts you have made. I've mainly seen you just criticize peoples work that they are doing for free and have no requirements on you installing it. It's not like they are charging you a fee to play their mod. You don't like it simply don't use it. One thing you gotta remember criticizim is good if done correctly, when it's done in a matter that someone percieves as attacking is when its becomes bad and is not needed to be said. Some will just stop modding for the public for these reasons and as a community we need to encourage them not discourage them.

thanks for the input Crueak, but to the best of my knowledge the only "criticism" that i've offered up in this regard was that perhaps just porting over gwx sensor settings to make the asw harder didn't really qualify as "realistic" (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...108075&page=2)...
that nvdrifter felt "attacked" by this and persisted in making all manner of puerile ad hominems is, while unfortunate and regrettable, not my problem;
and if that makes me a "snob" (or any other of the trite appelations that have recently been thrown my way) then so be it, "i'm a snob"...
:lol:

thanks for the input Crueak, but to the best of my knowledge the only "criticism" that i've offered up in this regard was that perhaps just porting over gwx sensor settings to make the asw harder didn't really qualify as "realistic" (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...108075&page=2)...
that nvdrifter felt "attacked" by this and persisted in making all manner of puerile ad hominems is, while unfortunate and regrettable, not my problem;
and if that makes me a "snob" (or any other of the trite appelations that have recently been thrown my way) then so be it, "i'm a snob"...
:lol:[/quote]

well i am by no means calling you a snob, was only stating the impression i gathered while reading a few threads and that is no means to make a basis of judgement on someone. So i do apologize if the post above was takin the wrong way. My whole point was just that there is both a good and bad way to criticize someone. The fact is that modding is for some is almost a second job, which is most of the time a thankless job. So I can understand how some may get fed up with it.

no worries.
in my profession (working concert musician) one gets a lot of both the good and the bad sort of criticism (and in print!) and one learns to separate out the wheat from the chaf and to not really take anything with too much salt... so yeah, i know all about good vs bad criticism. but i'll stand by that i'm an ardent supporter of the hobby and its hobbyists and don't believe that i at any point crossed the line such as to warrant the ill reception that i've been seeing here of late.

Hey, I didn't realize people were so sensitive, sorry, perhaps you shouldn't take every little thing so personally. I had baby duty today, and was typing all that with a squirming 9 month old in my lap and a 3 year old running around in the background... somewhat distracting. Thanks, nvdrifter, you helped me find a few files I needed (and figure them out), lack of an explicit thanks wasn't an intentional slight. <S>

Modding this is very much like skins and mission building in Il-2. People works on what interests them. If your thing is LW in north africa, it's pretty pointless for someone to chew you out for not making skins and missions for the IJAAF in Burma. Presumably everyone can come out with the flavor of game they like. Some will have it as real as SH4 can do, even if it's considerably more boring than mods that make it less boring. They might also switch back and forth---I like historical Il-2 missions, but that doesn't keep me away from the odd online furball :D

tater

I apologise if anything I have said was taken as criticism of a particular mod. . I was only commenting generally on what I think would make the game harder while still simulating the sometimes poor Japanese ASW.

I have nothing but respect for people who mod the game. It's the modders that will take SH4 to a new level and keep it playable for years to come.

Actually, you made an excellent point. I think there are simply too many targets other than merchants around. We know that there were on the order of 250 merchants at sea every single day. The number of warships, particularly larger than DDs at sea any given day would be TINY. The combined fleet didn't steam around in circles, they were short on oil, they were saving it up to use on planned operations. The plus side is that we know what those were.

Combinedfleet.com has troms for the large ships, I think we'll find the place to find them is home waters at anchor with the Hotel Yamato, Truk, etc.

When they steam someplace, they do so for a reason.

tater

Source:http://www.geocities.com/thomasdclayjr/Results.html

"Of the 116,000 casualties, 69,600 were administered by U.S. submarines. This by a force 288 submarines. Of this force of 288, fifty two were lost"

The convoys in the pacific where badly organized if at all present. Also the Japanese overconfidence played a big role here. So sure it was a big difference between the 2 TO's. Something that I think is sort of reflected in this game.

You do the old "but its not realistic" attack. There is not some sort of contract that modders have to sign where they have sworn to make "more realistic". The title is rather rude, isn't it? Just a polite version of "Yo, morons, this ain't the ****in' Das Boot".

That being said, make a Research thread where you put up all the goodies you can find about Subs in the pacific during WW2. It it is things like that the modders need to get inspiration. And still, I prefer a good time to diamond hard realism. Lots of things could be changed to make the game more challenging, but if some of them are not entirely realistic, you won't see any flak from me because of it.

To me,

Mods are Mods. If I want somthing that gives me a realistic simulation of the pacific war, I'll download the corresponding mod. If I want a giant laser on the front of my submarine, i'll download that mod. If I like beery's mod over another mod, i'll download beery's mod. The point i'm making is that I will download the mods that I like. I feel that Modders should be free to make whatever mods they want to make and let the community decide what they want to download and what they wont.

Two Cents Entered :ping:

~DeePsix