Already happened, Seth. There's many hole in the layer, some of them seasonal, the rest permanent.

CFC dispersion has little or nothing to do with the weight of the particles.

http://www.so.wustl.edu/science_outr...s/heavier.html

True. I don't advocate jumping the gun. And it could turn out that by the time we know conclusively that we are warming the planet, it will be too late to do anything to stop it.

So much evidence of warming:

Snow blankets the flight deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman (CVN 75) as crew members prepare for an ammunition onload with the Military Sealift Command (MSC) dry cargo/ammunition ship USNS Lewis and Clark (T-AKE 1). Truman is currently underway conducting operations in the Atlantic Ocean.
http://www.navy.mil/management/photo...-9475M-029.jpg

Attack submarine USS Virginia (SSN 774) is covered in snow and moored to the pier at Submarine Base New London.
http://www.navy.mil/management/photo...-8467N-002.jpg


(Feb. 7, 2007) - Deck department Sailors manning the phone and distance line bundle up against the cold and snow on the flight deck of the Nimitz-class aircraft carrier USS Harry S. Truman (CVN 75)
http://www.navy.mil/management/photo...-5345W-015.jpg



OSWEGO - Gov. Eliot L. Spitzer declared a state disaster emergency Thursday for Oswego County - battered by five straight days of lake-effect squalls that have buried some areas in nearly 7 feet of snow.
http://www.buffalonews.com/graphics/...0209shovel.jpg

I'm confused. Barring active interference, how could action like emissions reductions & recycling do more damage than doing nothing?

@ waste gate - A large part of global warming involves increased weather extremes and volatility. It's putting the planet on speed rather than a sunbed.

I'm not sure what your second statement means.

To my initial response regarding doing nothing I may have been vague. What we need is an unbiased cost/benefit analysis. Much like your response to the nuclear power response as to the transmission loss due to out of state nuclear power.

An off the head example would be; the farming industry will have to reduce the emissions from their harvesting equipment and still be able to provide food stuffs for the native population and send emergency aid to 'starving' nations in Africa or the Indian sub-continent, while continuing to pay for the things of life that will be affected by the increased cost home side.


Whether you or I like it everything has a cost.

That's not making any sense to me at all. How can cutting down on emissions and leading more green lives do damage?

Nice pics by the way - did I mention I saw a butterfly in December this year?

Gosh, who can argue in the face of those hard, scientific facts? Snow!!

That is my point. Where is the scientific fact that we are causing global warming.

Back when Lief Erikson discovered Greenland it was green. Not so much today. Did humans contribute to Greenland being green?

Besides, people cannot even tell me what the weather will be next week, much less in the next decade, or, the next century or millenium.


This whole 'global warming' thing is meant to do one thing. Take money from those who have and redistibute it to those who don't. If I came to your house in the same manner you would shoot me.

Being more efficient with what we have, and trying to repair the environment can only be a good thing. Unfortunately most people are still ill informed about global warming, and there are still those which believe it to be unconfirmed. The topic cropped up as far back as the 70s.

To say that acting now would be jumping the gun is dangerous thinking. The scientific reality is that it's almost too late to reverse the effects, and maybe to late to stop it, given our current behaviour. The last thin postive action is going to do is damage the environment.
It seems some people do not know the principles involved, so I'm going to sum it up:

- Global warming is caused by greenhouse gasses.
- Greenhouse gasses are gasses such as carbon dioxide, a gas which traps heat.
- Our atmosphere has a natural mix of gasses, mostly nitrogen, with a small amount of oxygen and other minor gasses.
- Industry since the industrial revolution have been releasing the carbon dioxide trapped in oil, coal, and other fossil fuels into the atmosphere. The CO2 levels in the atmosphere are therefore at increasingly unnatural levels.
- Because CO2 traps heat, and there is more and more of it in the atmosphere, obviously the earth's average temperature is getting warmer.

... Hence the term "Global Warming"

So why is this harmful? Warmer weather is nicer weather, right? Wrong!

The Earths temperature and weather patters have been set in an equilibrium, that is not used to changes as dramatic as those of the last 200 years. Warmer weather influences the temperature of ocean currents, their direction and their seasonality, which has a surprising effect on the world's weather patterns. Warmer weather also encourages more violent and dramatic weather.

Storms will be stonger and more frequent, droughts longer, monsoons heavier. Deserts will expand. Changes in ocean temperature are killing the worlds marine life. Coral is dying (coral bleaching), about a third of the world's reefs are already dead.

Most of the changes aren't so apparent yet, because they're not in our backyards. But Australia (my backyard) has had the worst drought ever. And although it's snowing here in Europe now, the winter has been ridiculously warm on a whole.

Don't be fooled by the small temperature rises that you see quoted as the global increase. These seemingly small rises impact alot. They are in scientific terms actually big rises in temperature.

So please realise that global warming (or more accurately global climate change) is happening. It quite simply can't not be. To ridicule the concept and it's proponents is the height of ignorance.

EDIT:

@ at Wastegate

I'm trying really hard to hold back on calling you an idiot. Global Warming is not made up, it's not some conspiracy some nut pulled out of his butt. The reason it's an issue, and the reason people noiced it's happening, is because of empirical evidence. Cold hard facts! Google it and you will find many.

Also, greenland was not warmer and greener when it was discovered. It just so happened to be discovered in summer, when it was green.

The idea of Global Warming has nothing to do with economics. It is the greedy money grubbers who have ignored the issue, because fixing it costs money. It's unfortunate, but we either live with it and pay the price now. Or let it happen and pay much more later.

Here is an idea. Let the EU cut all the human made emissions over the next ten years and the scientists can report on the effects. Certainly the population of Europe will make a measurable difference. After the report a decision can be made.

Global warming or not, I agree with you. I hate waste in general.



Yes, don't call names. There are better ways to handle it. :yep:

When you say 'yes' does that mean you are agreeing with Boris if so you have each called me an idiot because I have a different opinon on the subject than you.

Inappropriate!

Did you miss the "don't call names" bit that Neal wrote?

Lol, maybe I should increase the font size :smug:

Lol, be more objective. just because some believe the sky is falling doesn't mean everyone does.

Here is an idea. Let the EU cut all the human made emissions over the next ten years and the scientists can report on the effects. Certainly the population of Europe will make a measurable difference. After the report a decision can be made.