SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Who Started World War II?

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In the NSDAP, the "socialist" part was the group under Röhm.

Quote:

Röhm and the SA regarded the hierarchy as the vanguard of the "National Socialist revolution". After Hitler's takeover they expected radical changes in Germany including power and rewards for themselves, unaware that Hitler as Chancellor now no longer needed their street-fighting expertise as storm troopers. However, Hitler did name Röhm to the cabinet on 1 December as a minister without portfolio.

Along with Gregor and Otto Strasser, Joseph Goebbels, Gottfried Feder, and Walther Darré, Röhm was a prominent member of the party's radical faction. This group put emphasis on the word "socialist" and "workers" in the party's name; putting them ideologically closer to the Communists. They largely rejected capitalism (which they associated with Jews) and pushed for nationalization of major industrial firms, expansion of worker control, confiscation and redistribution of the estates of the old aristocracy, and social equality. Röhm spoke of a "second revolution" against the "Reaktion" (the National Socialist label for conservatives) to follow the violent Nazi "first revolution" purging of left-wing Communists and Socialists.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_R%C3%B6hm

useful when Hitler was trying to gain power and wanted to build a broad coalition, but they were quickly ditched in 1934 during the purge:

Quote:

Hitler moved against the SA and its leader, Ernst Röhm, because he saw the independence of the SA and the penchant of its members for street violence as a direct threat to his newly gained political power. Hitler also wanted to conciliate leaders of the Reichswehr, the official German military who feared and despised the SA—in particular Röhm's ambition to absorb the Reichswehr into the SA under his own leadership. Additionally, Hitler was uncomfortable with Röhm's outspoken support for a "second revolution" to redistribute wealth (in Röhm's view, President Hindenburg's appointing of Hitler as German Chancellor on January 30, 1933 had accomplished the "nationalistic" revolution but had left unfulfilled the "socialistic" motive in National Socialism). Finally, Hitler used the purge to attack or eliminate critics of his new regime, especially those loyal to Vice-Chancellor Franz von Papen, as well as to settle scores with old enemies.[a]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_of_the_Long_Knives

Hitler was never a socialist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat (Post 2373709)

Hitler was never a socialist.

He was as long as it did not contradicted his goals.
When it comes to socialism he was more balanced and not so much ideologically fixed like Röhm.
When you look from the perspective of the 30s he was very much socialist.
....it doesn't make the Nazi party any less evil though....

True, but you can't deny that even after Rohm was removed, the NSDAP agenda did have some socialist quantities to it, like the DAF, I think the true socialist part of the NSDAP era was probably the NSBO, a form of National Bolshevikism, but that was quickly done away with and replaced with the DAF.

well again it depends what you mean by "socialist", Hitler and the Nazis had no problem intervening in the economy to achieve their goals, but they did not touch the basic structure, i.e. no land reform, no massive wealth distribution, big business kept their corporations and profits. The Nazis also suppressed independent labor unions.

In many ways government intervention under Hitler in the 30s was similar to what FDR did in the USA. Is FDR a socialist?

you can compare that with the situation in the USSR where all private farms were turned into "collective" farms and pretty much all businesses were nationalized. That is more a typical "socialist/communist" state.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2373714)

well again it would depend on what the real role of the DAF was. Although it nominally meant that all german workers were unionized, some have argued the real purpose was to break all independent labor unions. Apparently, business owners liked dealing with the DAF since there were no strikes and owners could pretty much hire and fire workers at will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat (Post 2373717)

Indeed, it was a veneer of socialism, rather than true socialism, but then again you could say that even the Soviet Union didn't have true socialism, because true socialism isn't really a viable thing as soon as it leaves the paper.
No doubt at all that NSDAP was a fascist organisation, no doubt at all, but there were some elements of socialism here and there, to appeal to the people.

Well...FDR somewhat did put on social-democratic hat at the time with the new deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2373721)

That is true, it is interesting studying the evolution of the USSR in 1917-35 and trying to see how they tried to come up with a compromise between marxist theory and economic realities.

Apparently, they did try applying pure communisn at the very beginning in 1917, i.e. "from each based on his skills, to each based on his wants." Not surprisingly, all goods disappeared into the black market and the official economy collapsed so the "experiment" did not last long. :ping:

Lol, this thread is going nowhere ...

Bit like the Third Reich then. :yep:

:rotfl2: :rotfl2: :rotfl2:

As I see it, this thread can first continue after Fahnenbohn has translated these French documents, not before.

This is how I see it.

Markus

mapuc is right.
The entire thread revolves around those documents.

I'd like to retract my previous cynicism about this thread.

I've learned quite a bit.

This has had nothing to do with Fahnenbohn's posts, mind.

The fact that he thinks the thread is going nowhere is a great reflection on the high quality of discussion produced by the usual GT gang.

I say the Italians started it. First they invaded Ethiopia in 1935, then invaded Albania in April of 1939! So you see, Germany didn't start the war after all! :D