Then i drop all respect i can have for them.

Tyrants in any form deserve no respect. Especially the ones who are sworn to protect our liberties, but don't.

They have mucho gall calling Snowden a traitor and a spy when they're worse in my book.:-?

It will come time to balance the books soon enough.

I subscribe to a number of PC/Networking related newsletters. Read a couple of interesting articles about this "Government Eavesdropping" campaign.

NSA chief to Black Hat on surveillance: Don't believe press reports
http://www.networkworld.com/news/201...ity_2013-08-02

How To Avoid NSA PRISM – Tips To Stay Private:
http://www.thewindowsclub.com/avoid-...m-stay-private

Personally, I'm more wary of the press than I am of the government. I don't Tweet, not Linked-In, I don't have a Facebook account nor am I a member at any other "social media" network.

A nicely written article. I especially like the part where he points out the difference between being able to do something and doing it. Pretty much any government office has the ability to abuse power..... and they don't. Does it happen sometimes? Unfortunately yes. Which is why we have oversight organizations and procedures that work pretty well.

People forget that the NSA is not some nameless faceless entity. It is a government organization staffed with loyal, caring, and concerned citizens of the United States. They are your neighbours, friends, and family. Each one of whom shares the same privacy and government abuse concerns as non-NSA employees citizens.

It is not like if you work at the NSA you get a special code that prevents any of your information being collected. :nope: The people at the NSA are probably more concerned because they know how easy it would be to abuse.

But I fear the people have already made up their minds (either way on this issue. Unfortunately, it is far easier to spread fear about the NSA than it is to spread facts about the NSA.

I sometimes wonder if it's "Jack Ryan/Patriot Games" paranoia or the government's new "Bourne Identity" that fuels the suspicion. Ever since Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein exposed deep throat, everyone has been jumping on the BJ bandwagon looking for an evil government to fuel their investigative reporter aspirations.
Abraham Lincoln once said On assumptions: “If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.”

It's the secretive nature of the beast. How can "we the people" know that there is proper and effective oversight on a huge government program that we're not allowed to know even exists?

Well that certainly does fill the coffers of the conspiracy theorists imaginations. Maybe that's why a lot of Hollywood movies have been portraying our government as the "Enemy Of The State", instead of a government struggling to find a sincere balance between protecting Constitutional Rights while protecting American lives at the same time. This, in a day and age where News, information and technology itself is outpacing our abilities to keep tabs on it.
Spying on Americans and/or foreigners is nothing new in this country. Read about the fledgling FBI tracking down suspected communists or keeping secret files on our own government officials. Was it right or wrong to do so? That's not for me to judge, I cannot say with certainty that I know all the facts. Has it hurt our country or destroyed our Constitutional Rights? Apparently not.
So now we live in a day and age where information passes by volumes in a matter of seconds or the blink of an eye. The government has almost no choice but to glean volumes.
I certainly remember all the News articles and reports critical of our government's ineffectiveness or inability to track down and prevent terrorists from crashing some jets into our nation's capitol and the World Trade Centers. They spared no expense criticizing all levels of government, the FBI and the CIA. Looks like the government is screwed if they do and screwed if they don't.

Isn't that something to be expected of yet another super secret organization created within the government? The purpose sounds noble enough but, it has way too much room to be used for nefarious purposes. Using it to spy on the citizens is one such nefarious purpose and a very slippery slope.

A government is a body of people most notably ungoverned. That fact kind of tosses out the notion of oversight checks and balances. If the people elected by We the people have so much to hide, should we really trust them implicitly?

The NSA is operating under the eye of a secret court so they say. I, for one, would like to know who runs this court. It's not someone you or I elected to the position. So, we have little if any control over the courts' actions and searching for truthful answers from the politicians would be like trying to find hens teeth.
Should we really fear a government agency that treads on our rights with impunity? Damn right we should! If we allow them to get away with it now, what's next?:stare:

That would appear to be so. One thing you don't hear from those who criticize the current state of affairs is an alternative to keeping tabs on those who would do us harm. After all surveillance is just that. Ineffective intelligence gathering is as bad as no intelligence gathering.

It is a federal court. In the United States, no federal judge is elected by the people. They are appointed by the POTUS and confirmed by the Senate. To serve on the FISA court (FISC), one has to already be an appointed and confirmed Federal Judge and be appointed by the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.


That's the guy you have to be worried about, not the POTUS. The Chief Justice can appoint any federal judge he wants with no oversight. This is by design so that the Executive Branch could not pack the FISA court.... evidently it is OK for the Judicial Branch to pack the FISA court. :doh:

The names members of the FISC are public information and can be easily found.

A good reference is: The U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court and the U.S. Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review: An Overview

From the CRS 24 Jan 07

That is an awesome point!

This is why I feel that the government has the responsibility to earn the trust of the citizens, through transparency when allowed. Having a reputation of being trustworthy goes a long way when the government has to say "you have to trust us this time".

If the government does not have a reputation of being trustworthy, the "you have to trust us this time" does not fly with the citizens... and rightfully so.

No one, especially not the government should enjoy a position of presumed trust. Trust by the citizens must be earned and is easily lost.

I wish politicians would learn this. The days of a priori trust in the government are gone. :nope:

Government people on the "inside" of these secret programs have to realize that while they know things are going well, that the average citizens, who is on the "outside" of these programs does not know it.

People instinctively fear the unknown. They especially fear the unknown about their own government. And to me, that is a perfectly valid viewpoint.

I wished I had the solution.... well I do, but I can't tell you.. you will have to trust me this time..... :haha::haha:

I wholeheartedly agree. But, if the method of intelligence gathering has stopped even one plot of terrorism or mass destruction, it has not been ineffective.

@Wolferz:
Talk about power w/o oversight: Who oversees the press? The stockholders? The Editors? And, who then do they answer to? To publicize a headline/story without all the facts and make accusations w/o just cause is beyond irresponsible. To sensationalize for the promotion of sales should give rise to extreme caution on the reader or listener of a News report, but we all assume it's true. After all, the News said so.

I don't know if this has happened to anyone, but it has happened to me. I go to certain stores to do my food shopping. I join their discount club and apply for one of their cards. I fill out a form with my name, address, telephone number and an email address. Then I shop with my new card and receive discounts on various items. Upon checking out, I scan my card to receive these discounts. Then, along with my receipt, I receive a string of coupons for the same items I just purchased.

Later on, I find an email from the shopping center that offers me more coupons for the same or similar items I've purchased. This is the beginning of a profile database. It starts with shopping discount cards or on-line clubs, social media networks and expands to cover every webpage you visit, every link you click on and every online purchase you make.

Use a cellphone or droid? Make any purchases or visit any websites from that device? I assure you, big business knows more about you, your address and your IP address than the government does. So what do we know about those data collectors and who is overseeing what they do with our personal, private, information?

Yes, there's always concerns with the government and secret programs. So, why then don't we spend as much time trying to find out who it is that secretly tracks our every move, purchase or webpage visited. The more intimately they know you, the more harm they can do you than the government can. Ahhh, but that doesn't sell the News as well as the "Evil Government" does.
That's my thought about it.

I like the way the US agencies can get round any restrictions on them carrying out domestic spying on its own citizens, simply by paying the British to do their spying on Americans for them.

Effective or not. If it stomps on even one person's rights, it's wrong.
That's just my opinion. I never subscribed to the notion of...
My country, may she always be right. But right or wrong, my country.
I've been around long enough to see with my own eyes just how dishonest the government can be in giving themselves unlimited power over everyone.
Next thing you know, the Bill of Rights will be renamed The Bill of Privileges... Subject to change without notice. It seems that DC already considers this to be the case.
We all know that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Just don't blindly get on the bus or the bandwagon and expect the air conditioner to keep you cool.

Driver where you taking us?

@Wolferz, I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I'd be interested to see examples or citations of where you see your government has been dishonest in giving themselves unlimited power. Also how you see that DC already considers the Bill of Rights to be subject to change without notice.

I'm merely an interested bystander who'd like to know what you are referring to.