Let's put it this way: I see a strong inversely proportional relation between group size and individuals' intelligence. Intelligence goes out of the window, conformity comes in through the door.

My trust in groups and clubs is very small. My trust in political parties and religious clubs is non-existent.

But that is a strawman question only, we both know it, don't we. All i ask for is religious freedom not put above freedom from religion, and the natural politeness of not bothering others with something that is your most private stuff. No believer of any religion there is has the right to make others not sharing his faith making concessions to his religion, needing to compromise their freedom to give hiom more.

That is healthy reason and also basing on the very first and most basic premise of classical liberalism and libertarianism: that everybody from birth on owns himself and his own body and thus has a right to be and to exist, as well as that he fully owns what he finds and that nature has laid before him and that before him nobody other has claimed first and by that took possession of, so that when he picks it up or uses it to create something different by it or to trade with it, it is considered to be his private property until he voluntarily gives or trades it away. This is freedom, and without consensus on this, there is neither freedom nor can - or should! - conflict due to one person trying to steal from the other or to submit and own the other be avoided.

I think it is not too difficult to understand the close relation to the question fought over in this thread: your freedom ends where you start to limit the freedom of others. And religion has to pay respect to that principle, too. In western countries, it already gets allowed to get away with so many enforce concessions and compromises at the disadvantage of people not subscribing to religion(s). Fans of religion of course see that as okay and want the other not to make big waves over their discrimination- the religious crowds got what it wants: privileges for its hobby. Problem is, if not the crowd then the religious institutions always want more. And more. And more.

Keep thy religion to thyself. No religious demand on the street: no atheist counter-reaction on the street. Push the other to fall back and let you get more for yourself, and don'T be surprised if the other pushes back and starts to resist to you. It is so simple to understand how it works.

BTW, no religious person or club so far needs to accept his taxes in parts spend for atheist propaganda. Nobody needs to fear there come holidays for atheist purposes. Atheist propaganda symbols are not officially shown in schools. There is no atheist formula in public oaths and pledges. Nobody gets banned by regional/local laws from public offices or is being hindered to go shopping on days that are of a meaning for atheists (if only there were such atheism days...). But imagine this all would be the case, what you would think, how does it go along with your religious feelings when you are not discriminating, but become the one getting discriminated? That is how it feels for millions and millions of people since all these privileges are accepted on behalf of Christian religion in the West. Not even mentioning how hidden people must run their lives and must hide their atheism in regions and towns with strong fundamentalist communities, because they would lose their jobs or their kids mobbed at school if their neighbours learn they are atheists.

What you think you must believe in, is in your head. Leave it where it belongs - leave it right there in your head. That way it stays where it came from and is save and secure. Keep thy religion(s) to thyselves, people. It's like the dirty laundery in your laundry container. Your sexual habits in the sleeping room. Your shower in the morning: You leave it in your private sphere, not to be taken note of by others. Why must they need to see all this? Well, religious feelings and confessions are like that, too: they are part of your private, your intimate sphere. Do it, if you like it. But in a way that does not interfere with the freedom and right of others who maybe do not want to take note of your precious hobby, because they have their own thoughts and your own life to live and there own things to run.

And no, it is not just evil satanic Skybird thinking that way. It is millions and many millions thinking that way. Even many believers who are members of the church think that way. ;) Celebate your Easter thing if you nwant. But there is no excuse why I must limit my life because of your religion - that I give a damn for. I tell that in principle everybody. Muslims. Jews. Christians. I don't care what you call yourself. Just stop making claims for other people's lives. You do not own them , you have no rights for them, they owe you nothing.

No man can be an athiest merly by wishing it so, Napoleon.

Concerning freedom:- for a man to desern truth he must first, be truly free. The Advent horizon of truth eludes all men because it is unseen, but once crossed you cannot return. When a man learns the true value of truth, he does not use it to control or hinder others, but he helps others to see what he has found.

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dict...edom?q=freedom

Anyone else read Skybirds latest diatribe against society and wish you could be transported to Germany so you could ring church bells outside of his window? :hmmm:

Okay, this is nothing but trolling. Stop it.

I'm rather skeptic about everything, including myself, but I rather enjoy the church bells in our small town, but that damn mill whistle 5 miles away that blast 3 times a day........Worse, that emergency broadcasting when I'm half asleep watching TV....BERRR BERRR BEERR, wake the dead.

Makes you jump right out of your skin huh? I can sympathize, as I used to live just down the street from a fire station. Even today sirens irritate the heck out of me.

Call it what you want Steve, it's how I feel but sure i'll stop it.

and if we're gonna ban those dang church bells, I want that blasted Friday night football from the high school stopped, can hear it from across the river, ruining my peaceful nights, except now those damn crickets, can we ban them as well....

All these people feel they have the right to put noise in the atmosphere, end it all...

:)

But that is the point though. Where do we draw the line with "keep it to thyself? and still manage to have a society? Like you say just about anything can irritate people, especially when it comes to noise and lights, but eliminating them is impossible especially in urban areas.

No problem finding quiet up at my cabin but I would never expect to find it in the city.

Believe it or not, I sometimes do, to. Distant church bells on a summer day sounding over the fields and meadows, sun shining, mood is right. Depends on setting, the bells themselves, etc. The ordinary cheap chruch bell noise every Sunday , the common routine - that however is something very different.

A Muezzin yelling and balking I would not bear, however, never. And If I do not tolerate the one, I cannot tolerate the other, too, without making myself vulnerable for questions.

These attempts by some posters to go into hilariously pedantic details over issues I did not even mention in order to ridicule my arguments, are just tactics to divert from what I maybe could have really meant and wrote about. Adressing this stuff endlessly on a 1:1 basis only would confirm a flanking tactic meant to bypass what I am really after. Doesn'T impress me one bit, only blueprints the corner they are in. Submarines carry such distraction measures, too. They are called noisemakers.

If you guys have the opportunity to spend 24th Decembre, night, in Lübeck, Germany - do so. The old town is beautiful, very atmospheric, and not big, so to have a walk in this night short before midnight, is almost "mandatory" :) . Plenty of very old, small buildings, ponds, rivers and parks, christmas lights in the shopping streets. Most gemütlich place one can imagine for christmas. But there are, in this small place, five Gothic churches and cathedrals, huge ones, with seven towers, and bells in every one. Lübeck is famous for that, too, not only was it called the queen of the Hanse (and is home to the best marcipane-producing company in the world, Niederegger), but also they called it the city of the seven towers. Before 10 or 11 pm they start ringing all those mighty bells together. And then in most areas of the oldtown, the air is vibrating and you hear these beautifully sounding voluminous multiple bells, almost "massaging" the air. You can feel it on your skin, and sometimes even in your bones . It is incredible, and a most beautiful experience. Christmas nights in Lübeck are very special nights.

No, I/we do not attend the mass, nor do we care for the religious part of the show, when we are there. Still: the beauty of this bell experience is not reduced to us.

I also listen to music by - Bach... :huh:

Heck, I even like Gregorian chants... :o

... now you made me cry.
http://themetapicture.com/media/funn...rs-hugging.jpg

Life is noisy. we can't escape it. We can't escape people talking, pushing their points of view on politics or religion, etc. The problem is people pushing their rights on others through politics or legal means that would force them into a belief or system. Cetainly, religion can do this, but so can everything else.

As a nation we'll continue to evolve morally and culturally, norms will change, that's life, that's evolution. I just wish govt. would stay out of peoples business, but because we can't live and let live, that will be the future.

Dig it.

...and still manage to have a society?

as sky said: the higher the numbers, the higher the stupidity.
or: society fails at intelligence. Hm?

i find the basic view he describes to match my own.

be equal, play fair, respect each other in your doings, havings and not-havings.

religions and religious groups are a little bit "more equal" than those not in religious groups these days.

What you say may be true but you must admit that there is far more equality between religious and non religious groups than ever before in western society.