Cold War, DW style.

'Nuff said.

Well, I am estastic about the possibility of this.

I feel we need a game that's some sort of evolution and modern equielant of 688I and Sub COMMAND

Now, I will say this- I do not own Dangerous Waters, and have only played F/A18 Hornet, Fleet Command, 688I, and Sub command.
Well, counting total stuff, i HAVE Played Silent Hunter 2. That's not important though...as while it was fun- I insist on Scenarios for today's world- Russians? I would like nothing less. Fighting the world's other main Naval Superpower NEVER GETS OLD.

Now, I put.....hundreds of hours into Sub Command. I'm probably aboutto install it right now on this new computer I have....

I didnt go after DW(I still might if i can be convinced), because to date, I was into Sub simulations so much that I felt the idea of additional platforms might detract from the Sub experience. (As I said it's probable I will still grab DW)


I would like a large multiplayer, largely because to date I still have not played multiplayer on Sub command, or any of the other games.
I did enjoy Fleet Command, but not as much as Sub Command.

Sub Command has me convinced that Sonalysts are in their ultimate element , quite frankly, when doing Sub Simulations.

Sure, I can nitpick- over the years, I've wondered things, such as "I'd love to show a Virginia Class Submarine why some Cold Warriors were the best with a Seawolf" , or even random stuff like "I wish these modern Subs had electronic suites to go with the modern times, such as thermal imagers on Periscopes, real modeling(I can go on lol)".

Making a Nuclear Sub sim including today's best technology (to the best they can without violating OPSEC of course :P) I feel would garner a large base, as something that is the 2011 onwards era of simulators..something that would run on modern systems.

Updated graphics? sure, but you know what? Of the hundreds of hours in Sub Command- never did I really care about the textures and graphics- tehey really had it close to perfect, and with today's tech, they'd be even closer.

Multiple Platforms? I am not so sure- but I will not mind if they include them I suppose. See, i've heard horror stories about Submarines getting the short end of the stick in DW, and I've seen a few examples that make modern combat seem really one sided for ASW ops...


Things I fell in love with in Sub Command?

making massive battle group battles- and then participating. I mean, sure Fleet Command was fun, but from the perspective of a Akula or Seawolf or 688I, going to Pdepth and extending my ESM mast and just picking up the tens of exocet missiles, harpoons, TASMs, shipwrecks, and so on-GOLD.

Watching tomahawk missile launches through my periscope was awesome...



Under ICE Battles- Oh yea, you all forget about this? YES

I loved under ice battles as well- and yes ,i would purposely put ships on the ice trying to sail- trust me, there were still some very interesting battles.


I admit the Ai was cheesy, but I'm confident they'd be really smart in a sim today. Plus they have experience with AI..

Now, the Auto Crew is fun- AI could be improved as always, but I'm fine with that XD.

Tutorials- I'll admit it took me a while to use SHKVAL's , and There might have been some buggy modeling- but I used everything at my disposal. And yes, the tutorals could have been more- it did not affect me because i understood a lot of it really quickly and knew the rest.....;) but for someone who missed the older sims and started out with this, a more expansive tutorial would solve that problem easily.


Regarding older stuff- eh, you know what? Throw in the F-14 tomcats and such anyway- it doesn't matter to me. i mean, I know they were phased out, and since 2001 a lot of stuff has slightly changed- but this is a modern naval simulator, so don't fret about including legacy planes from slightly back to the Cold War. Be Expansive- throw in those Seawolfs of the Air(F-22's) and maybe the virginia's of the air(F-35's).

Keep on adding more expansive weapons- since it's naval warfare sure focus on that- it's at Sonalysts's discretion to add things like MOABs, etc(it can all be tied in easily)

Have a very inclusive campaign. They've done it right with Sub Command, I feel.

The Mission Editor- I'd love to see what they could do with it now. Ports in water-eh....i heard there's a "repair" function in DW ...sounds like a keeper. However, to be able to "resupply" from supply ships or ports...it'd be nice, but if it isnt in there' I won;t fret.

Find a nice balance of realism where possible sensor wise- it's a modern simulator, NOT a arcade game. this means, realizing that real life active sonar's actually perform pretty good..... ;)
And not having DDG's and the like pick up submerged assets that are still and near the bottom on the other side of a nice sound gradient from 30 miles away. :haha: Oh, and having the planes that are in the game not fight unrealistically such as only releasing one Flare or chaff then trying to outlead every missile shot. :rotfl: Or having helicopter pilots who do some crazy stuff when performing ASW or ASUW. Or using the Akula (any of the types)active sonar and watching it wash out and not detect something at 10 or so nmi in very good conditions. While the same object would appear on the Sonars of the U.S. boats.

For the record I highly enjoy the sea-state options, the stormy weather we can add in game- I'm up for it. I wouldn't mind fighting in the middle of a hurricane- Modern navies and Airforces purposely have all-weather combat capabilities for a reason, just in case it happens. :DL

Now, I have thought of something- if I'm in a major battle, or such- It would be nice to be able to communicate to AI ships, or receive constant updates from aircraft or ships flying around- such as when they've engaged, etc. I dont know how they might implement this- maybe go to the map screen , THEN somehow pull from fleet Command a little maybe- Or course keep it realistic, such as how it'd be implemented. Also during the mission editor , it was hard setting stuff like that up- plus it's hard to do it continuously, such as have multiple alerts over a decent amount of time be needed if triggered.

Think I saw somewhere someone mention realism of physics. if they are adding "repair" capabilities- that helps, however the damage system I think was a bit funny done. Oh , you know , bumping a ship, then after colliding with it, your ship takes more and more "damage" 20% maybe, and suddenly sinks. :rotfl2: Even if it had been some random part of the ship like a control plane...trust me, I've seen some hilarious stuff. Just basic stuff. This also applies to boats, whenther moving forward or backwards or zigzagging, rudder deflection, etc,etc. Oh, and this applies to air assets as well.

Someone mentioned nuclear-assets.Perhaps Sonalysts could consider this sort of strategic asset as well. For one thing, while I highly enjoy conventional warfare , having nuclear cruise missiles used, or air-launched nuclear assets, would help the realistic capabilities of today's fleets. Maybe even having the Boomer's use their missiles...it depends .I could see how this would detract from the naval experience, but in a WW3 scenario(it's very still much a possibiility today), the could go either the conventional route(which is fine by me, more ships to sink!), or include ...weapons that are loaded with warheads that would do a lot....

Perhaps...a Ai that works with you? Hear me out- this is a bit important. In Sub command, I'd try to lock a measure or figure in the TMA, then continue working out a solution-it sometimes would NOT change unless I totally disabled the autocrew. For what it's worth the auto-crew could have perhaps been a bit more receptive to my calcs :damn: :haha:, because every one in a while- the little things turn out to cause big mistakes , such as shots being quite off..:rotfl2:, but I'd like the auto-crew to be more interactive in terms of what they assist.

Perhaps a active-sonar crewman as well? Having a Officer to do periscope duties and sweeps would be a bit realistic as well, perhaps? Maybe even one for the map tables- After all, I like being able to do every little thing, but I'd also like to have some backup in some places. Now, i don't know how far they would be willing to go with assistive Ai in stuff like this, but it's the meat of the work, and they're working with you. and NOT ignorign your inputs when setting up fire control solutions, plotting TMA lines, or better yet, messing with you in narrowband Contact because they think after about 2 seconds youre done comparing some signature frequency lines against a contact, no matter if you're still flipping thru ships- :haha: and then I yell at them for resetting the list.:haha: Fine by me, I turn them off and reprimand them , then set up the shot/classify the contact properly XD, then tell them that's how it's done. :up:
In addition to addressing funny logic and happenings like the above, perhaps making them a bit adaptive as well.

A second opinion on whether the ice above my ship is too thick to surface thru? Well, perhaps that's asking a bit much, ya know :hmmm:, :haha:- but realism trumps all, so I'll leave decisions like that to Sonalysts(though all captains should know better)

I am very anti-arcadish for something like this- but I think Sonalysts knows what they're doing in regards to producing a simulation/

Overall, I will probably continue to put hundreds of hours into Sub Command- and really hope Sonalysts reminds the world why they destroyed the competiton in 2001.

Wall of text from a guy who didn't even buy the latest game from Sonalysts, yet he swears he loves their games! :down:

Dude, it's because of you that they have problems making business case for a new game....

^ That wasn't needed. :-? He clearly states why he didn't buy DW.

Yes, because he "felt the idea of additional platforms might detract from the Sub experience" :o:o:o

Is that the most ridicolous reason NOT to buy a game, or what?

BTW as we all know, DW brings not only additional non sub platforms, it also brings new subs into play. How can new subs detract from a "sub experience"?

Honestly I hate any comments from people who don't care as much as to actually buy a product from your company. I work in publishing industry (magazines). We take our readers opinion very seriously. However, every once in a while some :88) posts his "valued opinion" starting with "I don't even buy or read your magazines but I want you to do this or that...".... by this point his message is already in the Recycle bin or Deleted Items folder. Why bother, if he didn't bother as much as to actually buy the friggen magazine? How does he think we survive on the market? By reading empty opinions from people who don't even buy our products? Even if they claim they actually like them??? Makes no sense.

Then we have to agree to disagree on this. I just don't think it's fair to dismiss his suggestions just because he didn't buy DW.

I think some people have pretty fairy tale-ish view on how things work. Things cost MONEY. Companies survive on the market IF people BUY their products, if they have a working BUSINESS PLAN.

Isn't it pretty clear that the main reason why we don't have new submarine game every year is the brutal fact people don't buy enough of them? For gods sake that why SCS went outta PC gaming business!!!

If the people who claim they LOVE the sub games don't buy them, how can we expect people who don't care about the genre will???

I am not saying this guy's suggestions don't make sense. (Maybe they do. I didn't even read them, on principle, because if you don't buy a product, your opinion on the product has value of zero. The exception to this rule may be professional reviewers who get the products for free by the very nature of their job.)

I am simply saying this guy is rude or clueless. I dismiss what he posts based on that. First show the support of the genre by buying the freaking game. THAT little fact is actually more important than any wall of text any of us could post here.

By your reasoning, the fact you didn't read his suggestions and observations gives your opinion a value of zero. You're kinda undermining your own argument. :-?

If that's what you think I am OK with that....

Strange if you people think this genre - or any business really - can survive with the attitude "I like subsims but I don't buy them". And why? "Because new platforms might detract from the Sub experience"! :doh:

And to have this discussion in a thread where we collectively pray for a new game by Sonalysts!!! Some people don't deserve a new game, if they didn't even buy the previous one (game universally thought to be the the best modern subsim ever)

Where does anyone say that? I really don't understand what you're on about. And how does that apply to someone who spend 100s of hours on Sub Command and other naval titles, though he skipped Dangerous Waters?

You've alreay stated you didn't read his post. How can you level any argument if you don't know what you're arguing?

I quoted his reason for not buying DW, that's how far I got through his wall of text. The rest, for me, was pointless after that fact.

I am not arguing with the remaining wall of text. I am arguing with the fact he didn't buy the game. That I can do, as he admitted that much :woot:

God forbid we get a new game from SCS and it features some new platform. Can you imagine the fact that some people would not buy the game for that fact?

So Arclight, just tell me how do you expect any game developer to survive with an atitude like that? Because that's what's at stake here in this thread - not how sonar will be modelled or will the game feature 5 or 3 playable subs - we discuss the meagre possibility that SCS might or might not be back in sub sim business! THAT is the point of this thread, and it's hard for me to be optimistic about SCS's survival if people publicly claim they don't buy their games.

Again, where does anybody say that that is the case? We're talking 1 player that preferred to stay with Sub Command, instead of getting DW over a credible concern. Silent Hunter 5 ditched multiple subs to really go into detail on one model, so yes, I believe it is a legitimate concern.

How does a single comment translate to the global bad attitude of players? You say "people publicly claim they don't buy their games": how is this relevant to Tipper, who owns just about every sub/naval game except DW?

I agree it would murder any chance of more games/sims, but I don't see any proof anywhere in this thread that this is the case. Much more likely, most people simply don't have an interest at all. And I'm 99% sure Tipper would jump on a new SCS game, giving his passion for sub games.

I never said it does, I was commenting this one single guy and his IMO ridicolous attitude, hoping there aren't more people like that.

O yes, he's so passionate about sub sims he didn't buy DW, the best modern sub sim ever :rotfl2:

In publishing business (game publishing or magazine publishing, whatever) with "fans" like thse you don't need enemies, trust me.

Right, so we established it's personal then. Glad we could that cleared up.
I'm passionate about games in general, but there's a lot of them I don't buy. Does that make me a problem, even though I bought like 200 games over the last 3 years?

Seriously, arguing DW is "teh best thing evah" is nonsense, it's all relative. The fact you feel justified in making fun of him on that basis just makes you come off as elitist.

Honoustly I don't have any interest in arguing against such a viewpoint, nothing good ever comes out of it. So I bid you a fair day and take my leave. :salute:

DW is not "the best thing evah" but it's certainly a game anyone passionate about naval games should have bought long ago. It's as simple as that. Otherwise, what kind of "passion" we are talking about, and can any company survive in the REAL WORLD on that kind of "passion"?

This thread, as I see it, is about SURVIVAL of the genre. Or the survival of the SC/DW series, one of the most important series in this genre. Nothing less. It's not about sonar modelling or scenario design or the hull colors on 3D models - these things come later, if we're that lucky. This thread is about survival of the game.

To come to this thread, publicly claiming you didn't really buy SCS game for this reason or another, even if you do like them, must be very very disheartening for any company in the business.