How about we leave the racism out of it please?

:06:

You don't mean u-crank's or my post by any chance?
Because in my post I made fun of the b/w thinking some posters here have shown - and I surely didn't mean ucrank's line of thought. And it seems he understood the spirit right, took the ball and responded correctly: with even more nonsense than I wrote. :yep:

Thank you Penguin. You are right. :salute:

If I have offended anyone I apologize.

I forgive you, my son - you couldn't know that I prefer Pepsi in bottles. :D

:har:

I was raised a Pepsi in a can drinker and I shall die one.

Long live the can.:rock:

I did not say that. Religion does not have the right to do what it wants. Religious organizations and individuals must obey the law. I posted the laws concerning religious freedom in Germany, the USA and Canada. I didn't write those laws but I agree with them. If you don't like them take it up with the people who wrote them.

I implied no such thing. If I did quote me on it and I will retract it.

Again, no I didn't. If I did quote me on it and I will retract it.

What a fairy tale. There are no Western democracies with laws like this. 'Sense of bigotry'. 'First and second class freedoms.' You're making this stuff up.

How inconvenient. Will you be requiring therapy? Once a year the main street of our city is closed to all traffic for the Gay Pride parade. Should I complain?

I think you need to do some research. You have a very one sided world view. Is it a coincidence that Democracy began in the modern era in countries that were Christian? Please don't misinterpret that statement. I'm not saying that Christianity is solely responsible but it did play a role. Christian Evangelicals played a prominent role in the abolitionist movement. There are many other examples of Christians doing the exact opposite of what you are accusing. Have religious people been responsible for evil? History clearly says yes. But all of them? You put jihadists and Quakers in the same group. You need to be more specific in your criticisms so that you don't accuse the innocent. Your view of religion as a way of life is also jaded. Today in free Western societies many people believe, not by force or brainwashing but by choice. The question is why? Is every single one of them, as Dawkins says, deluded? Some of these people are highly educated, very intelligent and perfectly normal. Have they missed something? Could any one philosophy fool that many people? I think that it clearly shows that there must be something of value in it. Whether God exists or not is not the real issue. In Western societies millions of people have faith in God and live happy, normal and productive lives. I realize that politics/religion or science/religion can be a point of contention but for most believers they are not. They could care less. They live their lives like any one else. And whether you believe it or not they contribute to their societies in a meaningful and productive way. You need to broaden you field of view. I have read books by atheists and agnostics. Have you read anything about Christian apologetics? Do you understand all aspects of what you are criticizing so harshly?

You know I think you may be right. Sometimes I think we are talking about two different things.

My personal beliefs and actions have never hindered the freedom of others. I sincerely hope you can say the same thing.

Good post U Crank.

Religion certainly has no more rights than other groups, except tax exemptions in several areas.

Everything around us seeks to control out minds, the media, politics, religion, etc., it's up to us to control our minds using critical thinking. Cetainly, many religions don't like that and want to indoctrinate you with tools of guilt and fear, but it's not forced.

Anyone can walk to your front door with a cause, don't like it, put up a no trespass sign.

This reminds me of two canvas prints I have in my room. They're of the Darwin change design that's been pretty popular recently. I'll try to find a link..

If you even deny the most obvious essences and implications of your posts, then it is impossible to communicate with you.
The discmrination of atheists compared to Christians in Wetsenr country is a fact, in Germany as well as in the US. Your states have laws in many of them who limits rights of everyday life on religious occasions even that of people not sharing that religion, and several states have rules that prevent people holding certain public offices if they are not member of a theistic belief. even of those people not sharing that religion. In Germany, I even must pay money for religion'S institutions when I am no member of them, via my ordinary taxes. When i am Christian, I must even pay additional mandatory church taxes.

[quote]
How inconvenient. Will you be requiring therapy? Once a year the main street of our city is closed to all traffic for the Gay Pride parade. Should I complain?[/[/[quote]
That is the typical reaction of religious bigots like you. If religion cuts freedoms of others, then that is okay, that is a non-issue, that can be ridiculed, its just some stupid infidels dumb enough to not believe. If others would do the same to you, you would cry to heaven. - And you claim you are not defending two class freedom rules? You are absurd.

Many people behave reasonable - despite formally signing in to a religion. But the institution itself always has been and wants like I said. Also, people taking their religion in the meaning religion defines itself, are indeed highly critical neighbours to have. I do not wish to have anything to do with them - got burned often, won't get burned again. The more believing somebody is, I learned, the more unpleasant it is to deal with him over a longer period of time. Many people also have made their own private versions of their religions, due to disagreement with too primitive dogma. It is no secret that in Europe, of those formally signing in to christian faith, a majority is opposing the church and is avoiding them, especially the Catholic. If these people really are representing that religion anymore, or are more on a spiritual quest themselves and just do not care or forgot or or do not dare to leave ties to that religion also formally behind, is hard to say. I had some of these, when I taught meditation courses. What do I say, some. Most of them were disappointed people who felt betrayed by their Christian religion as they knew it. Dogma cannot replace insight into yourself. Belief is not knowledge.

Strange, i never have this feeling with you. The unambiguousness of your answers is what provokes my opposition to and conflict with you.

Oh, I have hindered the freedom of some people, and that was good, I will never apologize for that. Because you can abuse your freedom for bad acts and improper things, and then getting you stopped is indeed a good thing.

As long as religion is important to people as it is the issue is about common ground and some compromise.
There is no other choice , that is the nature of democracy and freedom when all sorts of views are interacting one with the other.
You can not have it 100% according to your personal preferences, not sure you should.:haha:

The debate where the red lines are is legit though.
I have mine as well.

Certainly "religious" discrimination once existed, but because it was an overall part of our culture that influenced basically every walk of life. But a mass shift has been taking place, now it seems that christians are discriminated against in many ways as well and I fear it will become even worse as the US becomes more liberal. My fear as we become more liberal, there is an attitude of payback against religion for past bigotry, bias, whatever.. Heck, maybe religion deserves it, but history seems to repeat cycles, so it could revert back the other way in 100 years.

I don't know what happened with it, but not long ago a gay group wanted to sue churches for hate speech. If you open your door to the public and then use hate/racist/bias speech and offend someone, they have the right to file charges. Is this the future?

Be nice if we could all live and let live, but there will always be people, groups, wanting control of your mind and politics will go with the masses.

I have a question for you Skybird. Is there any organisation you're OK with? You seem to be a complete anarchist wishing to live in an insulated bubble of your perfect world dispensing your critiques as the only right way if those other would only agree.

Is that an insulated bubble or an insulted bubble?

The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood. :hmmm:

Is that yet another translation of Gens.:D