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-   -   Life and Debt: A Greek Tragedy (merged) (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=196482)

nikimcbee 01-26-15 03:40 PM

Don't worry everybody, Tante Merkel has a deep check book and will gladly pay when it doesn't work out.

em2nought 01-26-15 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Betonov (Post 2281925)
Zorba the Comrade

Da! :D

Penguin 01-26-15 05:53 PM

All you need to know about Tsipras:

http://i.imgur.com/FJ7uN.jpg

Skybird 01-28-15 07:37 AM

A Greek historian on the eternal failure of the Greeks to come to terms with building a functional state that would not fail:

http://www.welt.de/geschichte/articl...tagnation.html

English bot-translation:
LINK

I would trace that inability even back into ancient times. Already ol' pharao had a song of despair to sing about what the Egyptians called "those little children". And the Romans at times were driven crazy by the grotesque bureaucracy and always blossoming corruption in their Greek province as well. Thats' why quite some educated Greek welcomed the Roman submission of Greece. Considering how influential the intellectual and cultural heritage of Greece became in the Roman empire, that era when they were ruled by Rome probably merant by far more benefits than evils for them. When Rome was gone, Greece entered an era of stagnation and non-existence for roughly two millenia.

News of today: Tsipras has announced that thousands of public officials, who were retired or fired in a bit to slightly reduce the by far biggest bureaucratic apparatus in any EU country, are being called back to their work, if one can call that stellar amount of institutional incompetence "work". That historical essay above sends a deja vu, it seems. He also announced that Greece opposes further EU sanctions against Russia. Both steps are meant to seek confrontation with Greek creditors, eh wants to get paid for concessions.

I say let the Greek do what they want, accept that all credit billions given so far are lost anyway, give no further money and let the Greek see where it leads them inside their precious proud tiny little country. They are not the navel of the universe. Not even of Europe. The owls in Athen may howl - but the caravan moves on. And the markets obviously have written off Greece anyway already. So why should us overwhelmingly powerfull wicked evil Fourth-Reich-Nazis even care...

Tchocky 01-28-15 07:37 PM

Yeah! Screw Greece anyway!

Thankfully no European economies are either interlinked or dependent on international trade.

Skybird 01-28-15 08:27 PM

Greece contributes less than 0.3% to the world's GDP, so their relevance today is somewhat limited, to put it friendly. Bangladesh contributes more to the global GDP. Markets have adopted to the chance for a Grexit, stockmarket indices reflect and communicate that. Athen has no threat potential anymore by which to blackmail the EU. Oh, the Greek stockmarket yesterday collapsed, in case you have not noticed it, in reaciton to Tsipra's announcement of suicidal plans. The two biggest banks of Greece, lost 30 and 40% of their value. That is the Tsipras magic. More to follow!

Let them have their own currency that they can value up and down like they want, and refer them to the long since overdue structural reforms. Best for them. Best for us. Best for all. At least the best of all bad scenarios possible, since good options we already have run out of many, many years ago.

But you can plunder your private savings, Tchocky, and transfer them over to Athens to contribute to their cause, if you feel so concerned. ;) Just keep your hands off other people's stack. When somebody of us wants to follow your example, we can decide and do so all by ourselves and do not need neither your assistance nor your command, thank you.

Hewre is Vaclav Klaus in an interview witrh German daily Die Welt, on the disaster of the Maastricht treaties and the Euro:

http://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/st...d_4435356.html

Quote:

Die Diagnose ist sehr einfach: Die europäische Wirtschaft leidet unter einem Systemfehler. Man muss sich dieses Fehlers annehmen, anstatt auf Gipfelkonferenzen kosmetische Korrekturen zu beschließen. Die sind irrelevant. Ich werde oft gefragt, welche konkreten Maßnahmen ich empfehle. Diese Frage ist falsch. Es gibt keine richtigen Maßnahmen. Was wir brauchen, ist ein Paradigmenwechsel.
(...)
Europa braucht einen Systemwechsel, ähnlich wie die osteuropäischen Staaten vor 25 Jahren. Ich war damals Finanzminister und habe immer gesagt, dass wir keine Reformen brauchen. Reformen gab es gegen Ende des Kommunismus genug. Wir brauchten eine grundlegende Veränderung des Denkens und des Benehmens. Das gleiche gilt heute für die EU.
(...)
Vom europäischen Sozialismus hin zu einem echten Kapitalismus.
(...)
Je schneller Griechenland die Eurozone verlässt, desto besser für Griechenland. Ansonsten wird Griechenland jahrzehntelang in tragischen Situationen verharren. Die Finanztransfers, die wir aktuell sehen, sind keine Hilfen für Griechenland. Es sind Hilfen für die Weiterexistenz der Eurozone.
Der Euro ist die größte Tragödie Europas.
Translation:
"The diagnosis is simple. The European economy suffers from a (fundamental) system error. One has to adress this system error, instead of just doing some cosmetical corrections at summits. These are irrelevant. I often get asked what concrete measure I would recommend. The question is wrong. There are no right measures. What is needed, is a fundamental change in paradigms. (...) Europe needs a system chnage, comparable to the easteuropean states 25 years ago. Back then I was finance minister, and I always said that we did not need reforms. Reforms we had more than enough at the end of communism. We need a fundamental chnage in thinking and behaving. The same is true for the EU today. (...) From European socialism towards true capitalism.(...) The Euro is the biggest tragedy of Europe. (...) The sooner Greece leaves the Euro, the better it will be for Greece. Else it will stay deadlocked for decades in this tragic situation. The financial transfers we currently see, are no help for Greece. They are a help to secure the survival of the Euro.

em2nought 01-29-15 04:44 AM

Greece should go for being the Thailand of Europe. They've got the food, they just need bar girls and massage parlors. Kathoey need not apply. :D

Jimbuna 01-29-15 06:34 AM

Tsipras was quoted on UK news last night as confirming Greece will not default on her next loan repayment.

Oberon 01-29-15 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by em2nought (Post 2282607)
Greece should go for being the Thailand of Europe. They've got the food, they just need bar girls and massage parlors. Kathoey need not apply. :D

They're going through governments at about the same rate as Thailand... :hmmm:

Wonder how long it'll be before the Greek military stages a coup... :hmmm:

Jimbuna 01-29-15 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon (Post 2282648)
They're going through governments at about the same rate as Thailand... :hmmm:

Wonder how long it'll be before the Greek military stages a coup... :hmmm:

Probably when they have sufficient funds to buy some ammo for their rifles.

STEED 01-29-15 07:05 AM

Still not much going on where I am sitting. :hmmm:

Skybird 01-29-15 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimbuna (Post 2282658)
Probably when they have sufficient funds to buy some ammo for their rifles.

And their tanks! :D Three or four years ago news made the round that they have the biggest battle tank fleet in NATO (after the US), but over half of their tanks had no ammo at that time. :har:

Jimbuna 01-29-15 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird (Post 2282669)
And their tanks! :D Three or four years ago news made the round that they have the biggest battle tank fleet in NATO (after the US), but over half of their tanks had no ammo at that time. :har:

Looks like they have in the region of 1900 ranging from Leopards to M60A1's :o

Many of them are in storage but so are over half of the UK's 407 :)

Skybird 01-29-15 10:08 AM

Last time I read about it, longer time ago, it was over 2400 tanks. :D Ah, unarmed hull targets, I mean. :haha:

They probably need to maintain virtual tank batallions so that old 80 year old grandfathers can still get listed as "active" officers and get their full Major's and Colonel's pay. Greek administration, you know. ;)

Jimbuna 01-29-15 10:15 AM

Well someone has to have money to pay for the swimming pool tax :)


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