SUBSIM Radio Room Forums - Unnarmed 17 year old shot dead "in self defence"

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- - Unnarmed 17 year old shot dead "in self defence" (https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=193592)

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Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo (Post 1863998)

We don't know the circumstances. Was it a 3 day order, a year long order, etc? In most jurisdictions a woman can file for an emergency order and get it ok'd by a judge temporarily without the other party ever getting an opportunity to refute the claim. In those cases, a hearing is set for 30 days, and a long term, "permanent" (which lasts a year) order is either allowed or the existing order is dismissed. So a person can have a restraining order put against them without any misdoing or even a chance to defend themselves. Your going to judge him guilty of a murder on that?

That depends on the order. Even if his right to carry was suspended under the terms of the restraining order, once that order lapsed (max one year from its inception date), his right to carry would be reinstated.

Its actually worse. You see - being suspended from school means not only was young Martin accused of wrongdoing, when the matter was brought before the authority of the school, he was found "guilty" and punished from breaking "school law". He has his opportunity to assert a defense, and it was found lacking. His "oh so caring" mother or father could have raised a ruckus and fought for their son if he had been innocent of the accusations leveled against him. There is no indication they did so. As a parent - I can tell you I sure as hell would go to bat for one of my kids!

On the other hand, you have Zimmerman - who has been accused of things in his past. However, the matters were either dropped before it even went to court - or he was exonerated. Given that he was accused of assualt on a cop, I can safely say its unlikely such a charge was simply dropped - DA's and cops don't let that just slide. Yet in the end - he was never found to have been guilty of anything.

Bottom line - in the world each lived in - Martin in the world of teen age school authority and Zimmerman in the much harsher world of criminal justice, Martin was "found guilty" and Zimmerman was not.

Regardless of Martin's past, its a tragedy he was killed. Regardless of Zimmerman's past (or lack thereof), he is not pure as the driven snow in this. But to want to drag up accusations against Zimmerman that were never turned into convictions - while ignoring the past actions of Martin that were deemed punishable - really stinks. It does nothing more than use the tactics of personal destruction that some (and no - not you mookie) have always tried.....

*The seriousness of the accusations outweigh the truth of the matter*

That isn't how our justice system works. Thankfully.

I have custody of my young son because of the fact that the truth matters more than the accusations. I have had untold numbers of baseless, vile accusations made against me. When it all came out in the wash, the truth was plain - and I was blessed to be granted the opportunity to give my son something he sorely needed: A stable and loving home.

If you wanted to go by mere accusation, then I should be locked up in jail while my son would be living with and learning from his mother how to defraud welfare, from his oldest brother how to live on house arrest for conspiracy to commit armed robbery, how to be ok with probation for B&E, and from his sister how to get popped for selling meth.....

If you wanted to go with truth, then I am what I am - a Father with a young man who is being successful in developing his social skills, his education, and his mental and emotional growth. No behavioral problems. He is a success - he simply needed the right environment.

Yea - I will err on the side of truth - not mere accusation.

Trayvon being dead is a tragedy - and we will never fully know what happened in detail. But it is reasonable to say that given his past, he contributed to the circumstances that got him killed. Just as Zimmerman did as well.

Actually school suspensions have little relevance to anyone they do not even ask you such information upon joining the military expulsion would be a concern because then you committed a huge violation and I do not recall ever being asked if I was expelled when I joined the military either.O the other hand the military does want to know if you where ever regardless of the end result many jobs take this into consideration as well as it can easily be found out what your arrest record is.

Zimmerman went through a first time offenders program which means he got lucky had he a previous he would have been convicted more than likely for the battery on a cop.Which to me his past implies that he might have a wee bit of a self control issue one ding being the battery on the LE and the next being someone placing a restraining order against him this implies Zimmerman has two dings in his past.That does not mean that is guilty but it does imply that he may be a bit violent under certain situations and the fact that one of these acts was against a police officer shows that he has or has had no restraint in the past even against a person clearly having authority.

News: Forensics expert claims screams for help on 911 call not Zimmermans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...upS_story.html

It sure does seem that his defense is developing some holes...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealhead (Post 1864080)

Steelhead - the case on assaulting an LE was at the least weak. He was not convicted, he did not plead out. He was offered a diversion program that would drop the charges against him. Instead of having to mount an expensive courtoom defense, he accepted. This happens all the time - to people of all races and backgrounds. There was no pleading of guilty, nor any legal conviction or admission of wrongdoing. Yet your acting as if he was guilty.

On the Restraining Order - that was a one year order - but it not only named him - it named his ex girlfriend as well. So does that mean she must be "guilty" of domestic violence too, since she was accused of the same? Of course - no charges ever filed.....

The reality is that the facts do show this guy was "out of control" in his wannabe angst. Yes, it also shows at the least that he had demonstrated questionable judgement in the past.

That still doesn't make him solely responsible for the outcome. Had Martin just kept on walking instead of turning to confront his follower, had he not gotten on top of Zimmerman after knocking him down, etc - he might be alive today. I am not saying Zimmerman is innocent. My posts throughout this have been a call to hold him responsible. But to claim he has "a record" is stating that he has committed criminal offenses for which he has been deemed guilty. That is a false claim.

I do think he should be behind bars. But sacrificing the premise of how our judicial system is supposed to work because of this one individual, or intentionally misrepresenting his background does a disservice to us all.

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He was offered a diversion program that would drop the charges against him. Instead of having to mount an expensive courtoom defense, he accepted. This happens all the time - to people of all races and backgrounds. There was no pleading of guilty, nor any legal conviction or admission of wrongdoing. Yet your acting as if he was guilty.

So Zimmerman took a course of action which avoided a day in court and a definate legal finding...so you are saying in his defence that he is like Michael Jackson then.

Wow the 911 tape is really quite chilling.. I will be following this story because I think it's a very difficult and interesting one.

I was a reserve soldier for two years after my national service and I had a weapon license and I was also on the security committee for our residential block for that time. One thing we were thought is that in any suspected burglary, "No property is worth a life": It is not worth getting killed or killing someone over no matter what kind of object.

I think the first mistake Zimmerman made was he didn't identify himself as a Neighborhood Watch straight away. As has been said, Martin didn't know who was this guy in the truck talking on his cell phone, and this is why he ran. If Zimmerman had just stopped him, explaining he's the watchman and to make sure everything is good with Martin, he could just let him carry on with walking back to his Father's girlfriend's house. Even in Zimmerman's testimony he does not say he ever identified himself as a watchman.

Zimmerman should not have taken his gun with him. Firstly, in principle; he doesn't know if Martin is armed or what, and drawing a gun on him would give Martin a great reason to panic. Secondly, because it is not his place to use it in this situation; the police are already called and are on their way. Zimmerman does not need to be as the policeman here.

I think Martin's school suspension is irrelevant. It's not for anything violent (Zimmerman's was) and it's really rather small and not important. Everyone does crazy stuff at school (I will save my school stories for another time.)

This is all I can add to the discussion. I don't know what went through either of those men's heads to make one shoot the other, and we might never know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aviv (Post 1864131)

I think Martin's school suspension is irrelevant. It's not for anything violent (Zimmerman's was) and it's really rather small and not important. Everyone does crazy stuff at school (I will save my school stories for another time.)

So being suspended 3 times in one year - once for drugs (baggie with MJ residue and a pipe), once for consistent tardiness and absenteism (wonder where he was when he was supposed to be in school) and once for vandalism (grafitti) and possession of burlglary tools (along with some items that were possiblye stolen) is totally irrelevant. 2 of those suspensions were for activities related to gangs - and no one knows where sweet, little innocent Martin was on the occasions that cause the other suspension. Probably sunday school, right? I mean, if ya read his twitter - he sure comes off like a sweet young boy headed in the right direction, huh? :damn:

You want to hold past accusations against Zimmerman, but you want to dismiss multiple points of proven wrongdoing and a propensity by Martin to display himself as "thug" and "street". Its a double standard.

I am not arguing that Zimmerman is justified - I think negligent homicide is a warranted charge. But what is factually known about Martin makes a scene in which he approached Zimmerman and started the physical altercation entirely plausible and reasonable. That doesn't let Z off the hook by any means (his actions contributed way too much), but people that want to ignore the bad on BOTH sides are trying to make this into a purely racially motivated hunt down of a innocent little black boy. The facts don't add up to that.

If that was the intent, Z would have stalked him, never called the police, ambushed him, taken a punch and then killed the kid. After which he would have called the cops and claimed self defense - possibly even an attempted robbery if M had a weapon of some kind. That didn't happen - but from the take some people have - you would think it did.

A young man lost his life, and Z needs to be held accountable for how his actions ended up with that outcome. But trying to twist it into something it isn't, a pure racial killing, is wrong. Especially when there are plenty of black on white racially motivated crimes, but there is no coverage of those real hate crimes.

I guess when the racebaiters of the left have nothing else they can point to in trying to save Obama, they have to gin up what they can. Even if it is against a hispanic minority that they try and paint as "white".

Z should be in jail, M should not be dead. Putting on blinders out of emotion or political cause won't help us all heal the divisions of this country.....

Actually, to counter my other post, I have read that Martin had gold teeth and tattoos and these reasons for being suspended in school (the burglary tool was a screwdriver). So yeah maybe this guy is a "small thug". Also he looks like he is really very tall, when Zimmerman is 175cm, so there would be less reason to Zimmerman to start a fight.

I think that maybe Martin got upset that this guy was following him, and maybe attacked Zimmerman. I don't think those shouts for help are Zimmerman's though, they don't sound like his voice and also, just before he is shot you can hear a very desperate scream like "no!" like if he sees the gun at that moment. So really I am confused and I don't know.

Quote:

I guess when the racebaiters of the left have nothing else they can point to in trying to save Obama, they have to gin up what they can. Even if it is against a hispanic minority that they try and paint as "white".

:doh:Looks like the people with a race issue here are those who still cant get it into their thick skulls that zimmerman is white.
Though with that post it suggests mr "christian" may have a problem with his presidents skin colour too.

If you have a problem with zimmerman being white Haplo then find yourself some political representative that will rewrite your countries definitions of how pale someone has to be to make you happy to call them white.
I think you will find your local candidates of that flavour are a "christian" group who like wearing hoodies with their robes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by August (Post 1864083)

News: Forensics expert claims screams for help on 911 call not Zimmermans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/nation...upS_story.html

It sure does seem that his defense is developing some holes...

Would this be allowed as evidence if charges were made? I thought earlier it was said that the 911 tapes were too poor quality to do this kind of test.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tribesman (Post 1864279)

:doh:Looks like the people with a race issue here are those who still cant get it into their thick skulls that zimmerman is white.

Here in the US when you fill out a questionaire that includes race or "ethnicity" they have separate boxes for "White" and "Hispanic". The reason is that here most "Hispanics" are from Mexico, Cuba or South America, all of whom have mixed Spanish and Native blood, sometimes called "Indio", and are usually darker than "White". Sometimes they are referred to as "Brown". None of this really matters, but there is some justification to Haplo's distinction.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RickC Sniper (Post 1864326)

Would this be allowed as evidence if charges were made? I thought earlier it was said that the 911 tapes were too poor quality to do this kind of test.

That's what I thought as well but now I wonder who was saying that the quality was too poor? The same people who didn't think Zimmerman shouldn't be charged?

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Not on your census so not in your country, Hispanic is now under either white or non white and is a matter of self identification.
So does George self identify more with the heritage of Robert or with Gladys(very native names)
BTW do you want to think again about your comment there as you are making a very big error on South America. Surely as you are pretty much in central station you are aware of Mittens south of the border heritage.

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None of this really matters, but there is some justification to Haplo's distinction.

It matters for those who have a problem with darker people being called white, just like it was a problem for some when Indians, Jews and Arabs are called Caucasian.

As for what matters, lets see how the synapses are snapping with you today.
At the heart of this issue, which peoples possible racism is that which needs to be investigated over that evenings events?

1) My comments were based on American perceptions, not necessarily actual identities.

2) Is it possible for you to discuss things without crapping all over everyone who disagrees? I think I'm done trying to defend you, and done talking to you as well.

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As for what matters, lets see how the synapses are snapping with you today.

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1) My comments were based on American perceptions, not necessarily actual identities.

perceptions can be very skewed. American perceptions especially ingrained ones may be at the very root of this issue.
Not that it is an American thing as Britains Met have just shot themselves in the foot again with it.

Quote:

Is it possible for you to discuss things without crapping all over everyone who disagrees? I think I'm done trying to defend you, and done talking to you as well.

How on earth is that crapping on people?
Are you having one of your moments again?

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As for what matters, lets see how the synapses are snapping with you today.

Simple statement leading to the central question at the core of the whole issue.
If you think that is crapping on you then your synapses are not snapping at all or your perception is skewed beryond belief.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie (Post 1864078)

I stopped reading there. I cannot have a discussion with someone who actually believes and will try to argue that being suspended from school is actually worse than being arrested. Hoo boy. :rotfl2:

I don't think that's fair, mookie. My first reaction was similar to yours, but then I thought about it.

People are arrested for many things. If someone is arrested merely because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, then exonorated and released, they did NOTHING wrong.

Someone suspended from school can't say the same thing, generally.