No. All of subsim is not openly threatened, what is going on here is, that being polite and courteous costs nothing.

And be careful the bridge you burn to day you may need to cross tomorrow, is what I have said all along here but in so many words, you didn't get upperty with me over it MONO. I was saying alienate nobody, and you will be fine. Basically, dont give somebody attitude and then they have no reason to not cooperate with you. See.

Why don't you ask the SH4 forum what their opinion is on this issue? I can almost guarantee you that it's completely opposite of what you (all) want it to be. If you were to tell the SH4 forum you can't use any of my mods unless you ask me, they'd tell you to bugger off. They adhere to crediting the individual(s) for the work they have used or modified. That is not stealing by any means.

And I say to you, there is no one else in Subsim modding, not in SH4 or in SH3, that puts forth the condescension and arrogance towards the rest of the modding community that you see here coming from Lehmann.

The good talented people in GWX, are having their images tarnished by the one they have chosen to publically represent them.


In this thread, and in PM's today, there have been conversations that sought to find common ground and cooporation between us. And progress is being made.

You can see what course Lehmann chooses to take, and what effects that has.

Look where this thread was a few hours ago, and look where Lehmann has taken it now.


I leave my previous posts, and Lehmann's, as clear evidence of what is reality here.

HAHAHAHA... you mean that is what YOU have have decided. Funny how you are the only one screaming on this thread if all are supposed to support your "damn them all" view on matters of common decency.

You will meet resistance, because some of us actually care about the integrity of previous works and the opportunity for someone to say "no" with a valid reason given by the creator. Making sure the right people are credited goes without saying and is part and parcel of a SIMPLE process.

The very act of observing and using the suggested modder's ettiquette would keep things cool in about a hundred jillion ways.

Maybe eventually, people would begin to treat those bridges they walk across with a little respect.

Nice try.

This is not a "GWX thing" or a "Lehmann thing"... it is a COMMUNITY concern and I could care less if you or Monolith or anyone else dislike me.

It is a matter of conviction and a matter of RIGHT versus WRONG!!!

Great! So let's revise the modding etiquette. Do you have an objection to this?

Just prior to your arrival... that is exactly the process we went through via community discussion.

It doesn't need revision. It just needs to be adhered to.

We do exactly that.

Remember when we played video games to have fun? Those were good times... :cool:

This says "Don't take my power away".



It's everything I have said in this thread.

Any modder, needs, should, and will credit other modders for their work. It's what we already do with SH4.

But if I have to duplicate a file tweak of yours, in order to make something compatible with your mod, for the benefit of the community users, we are going to do it without having to ask Lehmann for his approval.

Sorry, but everyone else, the rest of the community, is more important than one Lehmann's control trip.

Well I'm sorry I'm such a latecomer to this party. I believe it needs to be revised as the way I see it it suits the needs of one but not all. I'm glad you all adhere to it because it seems that you all were a major contributor to it. Am I incorrect here?
There is nothing that says we cannot have or call for a revision. But it might be a moot point anyways as these are just recommended guidelines anyways. No?

LOL!!! That was based on a community discussion. I simply pushed the fact that it needed to happen.

If I am the person you describe... you really gotta ask yourself how it is that the GWX dev team has held together for so long.

As much as I'd like to pay them REAL MONEY... NO ONE associated with TGW or GWX is an employee. Nothing stands between those awesome people and the door.

Spew your venom all you like. It changes nothing.

The modding ettiquette guidelines do not need a rewrite... they are fair and equitable to all... and obviously unscrupulous individuals will drop them like a hot rock when it conflicts with their personal desires.

Now, where were we!!! Oh yeah! about the U-Boat add-on that's right. For me I would've preferred a surface ship add-on instead :yep:

You see them as fair, I do not. Maybe others share my view, maybe not. Do not even try to say that my or anyone's elses personal desires play a part in this. Good try. It's about enhancing, adding to, or improving existing mods and the method used to do it. SH4 plays the giving credit game as all should be.

So this is back to etiquette is it?

Modder ediqutte is a vehicle on how GWX maintains control over their mod, and ultimatly SH3 in general. GWX team does not share crap in terms of tools, or knowledge with the community. You will never see the GWX team releasing tweak files for any files in their mod, nor even tools. You will never see them talking in detail about their AI visual settings, nor their choice in sub mechanics. Its all a big secret.

Along the lines of secrecy, GWX has created inhouse tools that they choose not to share with the community at all. They keep this to themselves, so nobody else can use them. They made this one a few years ago, http://www.ducimus.net/sh4/jammu.jpg

I imagine that they've had something like this
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=119571
For quite some time now.


If GWX was so benevolant and misunderstood, why all the secrecy? NYGM is essentually dead, there is nobody to compete with, DTB is gone, and for that matter, why compete at all? Have to be the big kid on the block? You'd think that after all this time, they'd take their victory loral, retire, and enjoy the game they made for themselves, but they don't. Ultimatly, GWX doesn't share, they just take. They are sort of like the borg. They assimiliate.

My biggest issue is, I know they'll work their way to SH4, and apply their brand of eithics to what is otherwise a wonderful mod community. Open source is a wonderful modding enviorment, but it is one that is not supported by GWX. They'll assimilate the community here, and ultimatly control this community as well as the SH3 community. I make no mistake here, KL is very good at playing his poltical cards on subsim. He has alot of clout and influence, and is very good at manipulating people to get what he wants. I know this response of mine will probably bring a heated reply, and im going to do my best to ignore that reply. But I beleive i know what i speak of. I've been in the deepest bowls of the stink that is GWX and got quite a bit of it on myself, and im none too proud of that. Infact, im ashamed of myself for having ever been involved with that mod project or the project manager behind it. Its a shame i can't revoke my "permission" on some of my contributions there. Of course by GWX standards, maybe i can, but would they adhere to that? No, of course not, its not in their best interest. The only ethics that interests KL, iare ones that are to his bennfit, not the communities.

I don't see why you can't revoke your permissions. I was told that my previous permission grants were null and void with them. But this is all besides the point. We all shouldn't have to ask for permission. We need to respect the modder or group and give credit if we use any part of their work. :yep:

Haha! I may have no posts on this forum but i know forums and you guys all broke the common sense rule on this one. Thanks for the entertaining read, i think it should now be deleted. Forum "conversations" where there is a strong possibility of tenseness and opposed opinion should be locked at the first sign of being personal. I remember the same sort of fights breaking out in the flight sim "Falcon" over modding teams, ego's, rights and all the other irrelevant stuff that goes with great creation for end user benefit.

Do yourselves a favour and pick up a phone or take it private, wether or not a post is intelligently put without swearing its still a fight and no good comes of it unless you can actually reach a common ground and I cant see that (prove me wrong for our benefit tho')

Personally ive loved all the work here and anyone that contributed has contributed to my happiness.

On topic, the patch proposed was trying to please everyone at the same time too. My personal opinion is irrelevant, that I prered SH3 and the Atlantic theme. Fact is the gfx engine in SHIV is better and it has to lead future modding. Something was captured in SH3 that isnt in SHIV. Grey Wolves was enthusiastic about the Atlantic and that came across well. Something about the scream of "Alarm" rather than a mild "Shall we stroll down to 160 feet captain?" that made simulation come closer. Even if Ubi's is just an economic fudge I welcome development AND mods.

Now shall we go back to work? (PS fantastic video link above, loved it :))