you tell them to stop having a religion and start having a FAITH

secular societys exist allmost entirely on FAITH....odd that isn't it?
faith that if you have kids they will have a better life than you ...
secular society exist allmost entirely without certainty...secular society simply has to have faith that everything will..given enough time work out for the good...no garantues at all...
somewhat oddly..again
religious society find uncertainty untenable and seeks to eradicate it at every opportunity...which fuels the drive towards fundamentalist "literal" interpretations of the various religiuos texts...so whilst secular society seeks to have faith religious society seeks to have certainty...
brain stakingly odd...
tell them to get some FAITH.....God whom ever you deem him to be is quite capable (by the very definition) of taking care of himself...and if such a diety exists then one can reasonably assume he/she has got it pretty much under control...and that one needs to have faith that in spite of the glaringly obvious contradictions the plan is unfolding as best it could...

or you could make the plan unfold as you believe it should..but then that is in itself a contradiction..as others may have other interpretations....once you start down that route FAITH becomes redundant and a vast inconvienience ..
blah etc

''But how do you tell millions of europeans that are muslims that their religion is wrong?''

You can't, because if you say that, voíla an masive rampage.

you can let them know that we dont tolerate their bad behaviour by kicking them out of our country. because that is the same you do with people visiting your house. and he start to break stuff because you said something about his religion what doesnt fall under the term !''Insulting''!

kicking them out out of the country? isnt that too hard because where to they go?
Answer : Back to their own country where they can do everything they want without pissing me off.

That's about how I feel about the issue. And wouldn't you know it, I just took my signature down.


Where is this quote from? Was that Neville Chamberlain talking to Winston Churchill? Benedict Arnold talking to George Washington? General Santa Anna talking to Davey Crockett?

Immacolata to SkyBird, october 2006.

what the Danes can do, I can do as well - from the Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung or the Westfälische Nachrichten, I do not remember where I cut it out:

http://img181.imageshack.us/img181/2...cartoonxe4.jpg

And this:

from: http://dicklist.blogspot.com/2006_02...t_archive.html

(hell, that is a politically uncorrect site! :lol:)

As usual out of context.

"And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits. " Quran 2:190.

:p :p :p :p :p

Ok, now it's my turn:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

Why do you do it, then? ;)
The academical standard translation of the Quran into German is by Rudi Paret, 1966, because it is usually agreed to be the linguistically most profound one and pays tribute to the enormous difficulties of translating Arabic into European languages by having checked linguistical roots and links of critical words to different words that often are "overseen" in standard translations. I just discovered it this summer.
I try to translate precisely and word-by-word from my German copy of the Paret edition, and in context, and you will see that it all gets a complete different meaning then what your isolated quote seems to express.

" 2-190. Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loves not
transgressors. 2-191. And kill the heathen opponents wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out! The attempt to seduce the believers to brake away from Islam is worse then killing. But do not fight them by the holy place of worship in Mekka, as long as they do not fight you in that place. But if they fight you there, kill them. Of that kind is the reward of the infidels! 192. But if they stop, Allah then is forgiving, and mercyful. 193. And fight against them, until there is no more seducing to brake away from Islam and all faith remaining is the faith in Allah[...] 216. To fight against the infidels is what you are obligated to do, although you find it unpleasant. But maybe you find something [slaugthering] unpleasant although it is good for you, and maybe you love something [peace], that is bad for you. Allah knows all, but you do not.

Islam regards everything that it ever has conquered as it's possession until the end of all time, since it always has been the possession of Allah anyway and Islam just corrected a state of injustice when conquering that place, so when it conquers a place and that place frees itself and brakes away, that is a violation of Islam, and the place is demanded back (like Spain, Sicily, Southern Italy and Greece, for this reason). This with regard to "and turn them out from where they have turned you out".

Note the word AND that I have marked in above quotes. It indicates that all the limits that restrict the fighting against the infidels and make it situation-dependant - are somewhat meaningless, and that the fight must be carried out no matter what.

Concerning infidels that do "seduce" the faithful: the islamic concept of peace is not that of tolerant coexistence, but that of Islamic unilateralism and undisputed dominance. There is a seduction taking place as long as there is something left that is not Islamic. If you check history you will see that Islam is constantly on the attack, until being confronted with a power that is too strong to be conquered - it then settles down in a temporary cease-fire (no lasting freedom!, treaties with infidels the Quran - or the Hadith, I may mix it up here - demands to be limited to 5-10 years only!) and waits until it has accumulated the needed additonal power (or has resupplied previous losses) and then marches again. The concept of being defeated, of constant loss, is unknown in Islamic thinking, it is more a concept od delay of total victory and total subjugation of the enemy, even if it is measured in centuries (Jerusalem, Europe), and so is the situation of lasting peace with non-Islamic factions, or the "house of war", unknown as well. This relativizes any comments in the quran that seem to express that there could be peace with the infidels if they do not attack first, or provoke an islamic defense or counterstrike - the simple fact that the infidels are there already is the fulfillment of the definition of being attacked in Islamic understanding. Like it already is offended by the simple fact that somebody does not accept to believe in Islamic faith. The Islamic interpretation of peacefulness of infidels as a matter of fact as meaning to be submissive to Islam also points in this general direction. Peace in islam sounds nice and well, if one does not know the mental (and historical) context. The words peace, tolerance, and attack are used in very different understandings than in Western thinking and languages.

4-89 They want you to be infidel, for they are infidel themselves, so that you all shall be equal. So do not
accept any of them as a friend, as long as they do not walk on the way of Allah. And when they turn and ignore your just demand to believe in your faith, then catch them and kill them whereever you find them, and do not take any of them as a friend of helping hand!

Must this really be commented? Just demand, eh? It illustrtaes Islams unshaken self-understanding that when it wants to rule all world this only is for the best of mankind, and the fulfillment of a divine intention anyway. You can't ague with such a determined and self-convinced power.

I leave it to these most incomplete remarks, forgive, but I do not want to end up writing another essay with multiple dozen pages about how to interpret the Quran. the context of quotes from the Quran often is not limited to the immediate verses the quote is embedded in, but often links to Suras scattered over the whole book that in their totality form a view of the world, and a mental attitude and an understanding of terms that is very different to that of the West and that one needs to take into account, else one is in danger of interpreting single quotes from the Quran in a way they are not meant. Always see it not from a logical perspective first, but an Arabic (culturally, not verbally) perspective.

i consider most religions to be some sort of inteligence test...if you believe it ..you failed..if you disbelieve it..you failed..if you simply understand the need for religious thought... you passed...religious thought must evolve along with everything else..it's a big universe.... the Sun does not orbit the Earth...

I've always believed that the true concept of God is beyond our pitifiul human ability to fully comprehend. All religions are therefore little more than flawed attempts to explain the unexplainable, very simililar to the way one uses analogies and stories to explain things like right and wrong to children.

:up: :yep:






TaoTeKing, verse 1, translated into English by my own German translation.

I lately believe that the true concept of god is in mankinds nature to conceive. It is precisely within our pitiful ability to fully comprehend. The very nature of the human cognition is to make sense of things, to order causally and logical what is neither. Therefore god and religion emerges. God is the ultimate causality that explains all, a natural and quite rational induction carried out by mankind through ages.

:up: :yep: , too. I think all three of you are right. Understanding the mysetry that we cover by the term "God" is within our reach. but possible that we need to transcend ourselves for that, must learn to "oversee" our "selfs". It is within man's reach to experience it - but possible that man has to change fundamentally his perception and awareness of "himself".

Heh heh :lol:

You know Skybird if you were a politician I would vote for you. :up:
At least on the islamic problem.

:rotfl:

The Danes have done it again! :88)

nice find! :lol:

Heh, Ive seen those piggybanks. But not the mohammed one. I still think that baguette cartoon you found is a riot :rotfl: