Hello sordid.

First of all, Hallo Landsmann. Alles Leiwand? :D (Styrian Here. Yeah, your German, but WTH).

And now, on Topic:

I play Germans. In WW2 games. To Land, Sea, and Air. And, as a side note, i'm Communist. Still i have no moral problems. Why? Because i don't play a Nazi, i play a normal soldier.
There is no game were you Play a "True Nazi". And thats a Good thing.:yep:

And, (Yeah i know that was postet like 20 times already) it's just a Game.

I am with Lovro in this matter.
I don't want to get Anti-American again, but it is just lame to play the American-Super-Hero for the 1000 time. Well, maybe not for Americans....

Give me Ruskies or Krauts for a change and i'm Pleased. At least in 1 Game per Year...:roll:;)

My Opinion. :smug:

Exactly what i was going to say, dont confuse the SS/NAZIs with the regular german army/airforce/navy. In fact as early as 1939 german army generals planned on assasinating hitler, however due to his victories he was to popular at the time. They tried later in 1944 and failed, a couple of the generals commited sucide, Rommel was among the ones who ploted and was basically forced to commit sucide to protect his family.

So no i dont think all germans who particpated in WW2, knew or particapted in the death camps ect. If they did it was proably just whispered rummors. Heck people living in towns/cities less then 5miles away say (dont know if they were telling the truth or not) that they never knew of the camps.

From Wikipedia
"The plot against Hitler

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...el_May1944.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/co...gnify-clip.png
May 1944, Rommel (right) with his closest staff members: (L to R), his personal aide Captain Hellmuth Lang, his chief naval aide Admiral Friedrich Ruge, and his chief of staff General Hans Speidel, all of whom were heavily involved in the anti-Nazi conspiracy within the Wehrmacht.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...mmel_death.jpg http://en.wikipedia.org/skins-1.5/co...gnify-clip.png
A memorial at the site of Field Marshall Erwin Rommel's suicide outside of the town of Herrlingen, Baden-Württemberg, Germany (west of Ulm).


On July 17, 1944 Rommel's staff car was strafed by an RCAF Spitfire (piloted by Charley Fox), and he was hospitalized with major head injuries. (However, Rommel always maintained that the aircraft had been American) In the meantime, after the failed July 20 Plot against Adolf Hitler a major crackdown was conducted throughout the Wehrmacht. As the investigation proceeded, numerous connections started appearing that tied Rommel with the conspiracy, in which many of his closest aides were deeply involved. At the same time, local Nazi party officials reported on Rommel's extensive and scornful criticism of Nazi leadership during the time he was hospitalized. Bormann was certain of Rommel's involvement, Goebbels was not.
The true extent of Rommel's knowledge of, or involvement with, the plot is still unclear. After the war, however, his wife maintained that Rommel had been against the plot as it was carried out. It has been stated that Rommel wanted to avoid giving future generations of Germans the perception that the war was lost because of backstabbing, the infamous Dolchstoßlegende, as it was commonly believed by some Germans following WWI. Instead, he favored a coup where Hitler would be taken alive and made to stand trial before the public.
Recent evidence however, seems to indicate that Rommel was aware of the July 20 plot and the intentions of Claus von Stauffenberg but was cautious to avoid participation not merely because of the chance of repeating the 'November Criminals' fable. He was all too aware of the crudity and poorly organised nature of the plot, and the slim chance of the Western Allies accepting a separate peace. He thus took an objective and realistic attitude towards the planned coup against Hitler and his cabinet, though for all his forbearance and cautious nature he still fell foul of Hitler's growing paranoia and petty hatred towards the Prussian officer caste. It was even reported that shortly after Rommel regained consciousness following his accident that he confided to his son in private "Stauffenberg botched his plans, but a front line officer would have finished Hitler off".
Because of Rommel's popularity with the German people, Hitler gave him an option to commit suicide with cyanide or face a humiliating sham trial before Roland Freisler's "People's Court" and the murder of his family and staff. Rommel ended his own life on October 14, 1944, and was buried with full military honours. After the war his diary was published as The Rommel Papers. He is the only member of the Third Reich establishment to have a museum dedicated to his person and his career. His grave can be found in Herrlingen, a short distance west of Ulm."

Many many thanks Slownez... but i attempt that two times unsucessful :-?

It is a little bit complex.

May be because i have a windows 95 not DOS SH1 Commander version...

I'm an American, born in 1950, so I grew up with the attitude that Allies are good guys, Germans and Japanese are evil. Of course I know that people are people everywhere, but that was the way books and movies of my youth showed the war.

I play games with miniatures on a tabletop, and somebody has to play both sides. I enjoy air war sims, and I'll play any side. For me the thing is I like the machinery. I love the Mustang and Thunderbolt, but I also love the Bf-109 and Mitsubishi Reisen ('Zero'). Likewise U-boats were awesome weapons, and commanding one is every bit as intrigueing as commanding any American sub. The locations (starting ports) are interesting places that I'll probably never get to visit in real life, and the action is different and yet similar at the same time.

In air and naval combat people still die, but it's usually abstract: you're there to shoot the other guy's plane down, not to kill him personally. That's why stories of people actually shooting at parachutes are few and far between. It's the same with ships: you sink ships, you help survivors. Again, there are stories of sailors shooting the enemy in the water, but not many stories like that.

You're point about land-based units, especially individual soldiers, is the main reason I don't normally play those kind of games. I wanted to fly planes, I wanted to be on a ship, but I have never wanted to be a foot-soldier, in any army.

In WW2 games I mostly pick the german side for some reasons
*they impressed me what they have achieved as an Army
*Their Tools where far more advanced then the allies
*They have lost the war and so its an challenge to survive till the end
*They used good strategy's

I respect what the Allies have done for us but they dont impressed me by How they have done it and thats Quantity and Brutal Force

I have seen many docs on TV about the WW2 and mostly you see the germans outsmart with smaller number and the Americans having trouble by gettin the germans for example out of their Foxholes , and then some Hyper Hollywood General Decides to drop a massiv amount of Bombs on that place that afterwards nothing is left....but the germans are still their standing their ground...and the American General called that an Precise Bombing action....''Riiiiight''

Now I dont like the russians either because of their ways of combat. Sending 10,000 men without any Gun just to get the germans waste some bullets on them really makes me Puke. Also what they promised to the polish last defenders that they would help them if they keep the germans busy for a while....it resulted in an slaughter of the last few defenders of the polish army. that made me angry also that the allies didnt gave the polish soldiers any credit for their bravery and support in the World War 2. for example the Battle of Arhnem , they blamed the polish that they have lost that battle....while the Military intelligence knew that there was an Killer group of the SS division. so sending men there was an suicidal mission.

On the brittish I have not much to say against, they went into combat with Honor.
And also I haven’t seen a lot of Docs off them on TV

On the german side I separate them in 2 parts
1: The regular Soldiers, those who went into combat and acted like an Soldier,
I respect them what they have achieved and the way of how they where, they didn’t kill civilians on purpose. I think they where named the Wehrmacht or something like that.

2: The SS Death Squad, I do not respect them, they have slaughered civilians because they where Jews, I cant call these men soldiers, I call them the Nazi bastards. I don’t have much to say about these guys because they where the lowest lifeform I ever knew.

Also I want to recall the WORST bastards on the german Side, those where the Inktsucking bastards behind their Desk and they had no combat experience and they punished soldiers who in their eyes betrayed the Reich if you followed some docs on TV you know what I talk about. Saying that they aren’t worthy to the Fuhrer and that they received the Death penalty…’’What The ****’’


I have not a lot of experience In the history of naval combat but that’s one of the reasons I like SH3 a lot. Because its new and an wild way of hunting down ur enemy and bring them down to the bottom.


Now as for Games

As far as I know I don’t really mind wich side I play, I still if I can choose I would pick the germans, (reason shown above) as such I don’t like games that are in the style of Hollywood. Dramatic movie style start that you get ur ass kicked by the enemy forces and you’re one of the few survivors that are in for revenge…PUKE!!! Give me something that feels real. That’s why I like SH3, at start you can take it easy but after an while progressing in the game itself you are struggling to make it till the end of the war and the British/USA forces are making that really Hard. Like I saw in the mission editor that there will be a lot of hunter killer groups in ’44 I,m not looking forward to get in that year, I,m now enjoying my sinkings without having to much problems (silent rig and dive to 100 Meters when possible)
But as I have seen on many u-boat sites that at start the germans had an big amount of tonnage for an few u-boat losses. And ofcourse as I see that the tonnage rate of the germans are going down and that there are a lot of U-boat losses I think I pretty know what is waiting for me after 1942-43.

My final thoughts

In game I see no matter what side the enemy as an enemy
For example if I,m American/British, I see the german as Enemy that are after my balls. I don’t see them as Nazi Bastard that I want the beat the hell out of it and throw them with their guts in my hand in to the firery pits of HELL.

And as german I see the American/British not as the GOOD GUYS I see them as an enemy that are invading or attack the reich. And even that I now that in history they lost..that I will stand my ground

And I love to handle the weapons/Vehicles/Equipment from the WW2.

Greets

‘’Sorry for the length’’:roll:

I think that is important for the historical moment. An interveiw with A. Hitler for a brazilian magazine in the early days off the war.

VEJA - In 21 of May of 1935, you it announced a pact of not-aggression with the Poles, affirming that Germany recognized the Poland as the “native land of a conscientious people”. Now, four years later, it convokes the German troops to attack this population and to occupy its lands. What it moved since then in its head? Hitler - First she is necessary to explain that an entire province was pulled out of the Reich and that other territories German had been deliver to the Polish state under the justification of a supposed national unit, for occasion of the Treated one to Versailles. Then: later, plebiscites in all these places had shown that none of them desired to be part of the Polish state, that if it erected on the blood of countless regiments German. A thing was proven in these last twenty years: the Poles, who had not established the culture of these regions, had not known to keep it. Thirty years had been enough to again reduce to the barbarism these territories that the Germans, with great difficulty, had civilized. The traces of this retrocession were visible for all the sides.

VEJA - But this justified an invasion? Hitler - the daily one of the Germans in these territories was horrible. One was about a state constructed and supported in the base of the force and the truculência of the policy and the military. But the world if kept deaf person and dumb for the suffering of millions of Germans who had been forced to leave its native land for the Treated one to Versailles. Still thus, I tried to search a solution that led just to an agreement. I submitted this attempt to the Polish governing under the form of verbal proposals that were more than reasonable. You know them. Sincerely I do not know where mental conditions were the leader ones when they had refuted these proposals. E, as reply, the Poland gave the order for the first mobilization. Then the savagery of the terror started. E was impossible for a great force as Germany to tolerate such acts. The Poland chose the war, and it received it.

VEJA - the German military victory in the campaign of the Poland was uncosteded, and its rapidity surprised the majority of the international observers. The German army already completely is remade of the defeat in the Great War, in 1918? Hitler - Certainly. With less of one week of combat, he did not have more doubt of the result. When the Polish troops had found the units German, or had been defeated or repelled. The idea of a great offensive Pole against the territory of the Reich ruiu in first the 48 hours of the campaign. The German units had always been ladies of the situation, in all the battles. Of the day for the night, most of the Polish military force was massacreed, captured or relieved. Meanwhile, the German army obtained to advance distances and to occupy regions that, have 25 years, would have taken 14 months to conquer. E this always respecting the rules of the game. I very gave a clear order in this campaign so that lives human beings were saved.

VEJA - the stories are not these that come of front. Hitler - Not, gentleman. In the places where the people had not offered resistance, I guarantee that nor a glassware was broken. In the Cracóvia, no bomb was shot, except in the fields of landing, railroads and railroad stations, that were objective military. On the other hand, in Warsaw the war was lead by armed civilians in all the houses and streets. There, obviously, the war if spread for the entire city. We follow these rules now and would like seguiz them in the future. It is at the hands of our adversaries the decision to lead its strategy of a compatible with the international laws or incompatible form with them. We will know in adapting them to this choice.

VEJA - But it was reported that seven Squadrons of Special Action, the Einsatzgruppen calls, had been in the Poland exterminando of arbitrary form integrant sectors of the Polish intellectual elite and of the Jewish community… Hitler - Well, this is one another question. One is about the racial purificação. During all my life, I have been a true prophet, and costumo to be ridicularizado therefore. At the time of my fight for power, when it said that one day would take the leadership of the state and the nation and, among others things, would decide the question of the Jews, the Jewish race received my prophecy with laugh. But I find that, already it has some time, such laugh had ceased. E, at the beginning of this year, I made a new prophecy: if the Jewish financiers of inside and of are of the Europe had success in one more time placing the countries in a world-wide war, the result would not be the implantation of the bolchevismo in the world, with the consequence the victory of the Jews, but the destruction of the race mistreats in the Europe. The war is there… E my prophecy is being fulfilled again.

VEJA - How to explain its extreme animosity stops with the Jews? It believes you that the anti-semitism will be able to decide the problems of Germany? Hitler - the judaism not only has a pernicious effect in national level as well as in personal level, in the bad impression left for each Jewish individual. As result, some can take the anti-semitism as a movement of emotional and strict individual character. This does not correspond to the reality. Anti-semitism as a movement politician cannot and it does not have to be molded by emotional factors, and yes for the recognition of the facts. VEJA - Which would be they, then? Hitler - the facts are that, for the Jews, the value of an individual more is not determined by its character or for the sum of its acts for the community, and yes only for the size of its wealth. Everything that moves somebody to reach bigger objectives, either the religion, the socialism or the democracy, is for the mere half Jews for an end, a form to satisfy its greed and its headquarters of being able. The result of this is the racial tuberculosis of the nation. Therefore, the rational anti-semitism must englobar a legitimate and systematic fight against the privileges enjoyed for the Jews, and its final objective must be the total removal of the Jews of our way. This only can be reached by a strong government, not for an impotent government. E we are a strong government.

VEJA - Treat to Not-Aggression the Nazi-Soviet it gave force still more to Germany? Some believe to be about an agreement between gangsters, who had agreed to not raising weapons between itself to only have the guarantee of being able to commit aggressions in other fronts unpunishedly. Hitler - I have listened that the cooperation between Germany and Russia comes being considered a terrible crime in Great-Britain and France. A British arrived to write that it is perfidious. , They are well that they know. I believe that Great-Britain takes this cooperation as perfidious because the cooperation enters democratic Great-Britain with bolchevista Russia failed, whereas Germany Socialist Nacional with Soviet Russia gave certain. He wanted to use to advantage this moment to give an explanation: Russia is as it is, and Germany also. A thing is clear for the two regimes: nor Germany nor Russia will accept to sacrifice one man for the interest of the occidental democracies alone. A lesson of four years was enough for both the peoples. Germany has limited, however clear and unalterable claims, and will go to effect them of a form or another one. Now, if the occidental forces find that these claims cannot be materialize under no circumstance, and if Great-Britain in particular will be determined if to oppose they in a three war, five or eight years, that are.

VEJA - First it said you that he did not desire to the war under hypothesis some. In 1933, it arrived to affirm: “They insult me it repeating that I want the war. I will be wild? The war? But the war nothing would decide. It would only make to aggravate the situation of the world.” However, now you it seems radiating the perspective of a long battle in European territory, especially against Great-Britain, that Winston led back Churchill to the Admiralty (she reads note in the section People). After all, the war is or it is not the best européias form to decide pendengas? Hitler - It sees well: with the war, the national wealth of the Europe will go to get rid themselves, and the vigor of each nation will be wasted in the battlefields. Necessity Churchill and its friends can interpret this opinion as a weakness or cowardice, if want. I am not worried about what they think. I make this affirmation simply to show that it would like to save my people of this suffering. If, however, the opinions of Churchill and its followers, the lords of the war to prevail, this affirmation will be my last one. We will have then to fight. E weapons nenhumas will conquer Germany. It will never have another November of 1918 in German history. It is an infantile error to desire the disintegration of our people. Necessity Churchill can be presumptuous of the victory of Great-Britain. I do not doubt for one alone moment that Germany will leave victorious person. The destination will say who is certain. http://veja.abril.uol.com.br/especia...dex_flash.html
antecipated apologizes if any one that to find itself insulted by the interview. ;°)

No man, I just hope you didn't forget to breath.:huh:

OH OH OH:arrgh!:

sorry about that:roll:

Lo! Landsmann!
:up:

Well, this was a question that came out of nowhere!

Why do we play german - or rather games as germans during WWII- without moral conflicts! Well first off: There are no real moral conflicts in a game.

I'm a big fan of OPF and i still enjoy this Game, even if its make me Kill dozens of Russian; American; British; German, Chinese and what ever armed forces modmaker pull off! This is not a statement of life it's just a game. I would never harm those people in any way! Or think low of them, just because they're the big bad in the game!
I also play Falcon:AF and still don't want to drop Bombs on Serbia or North Korea for real!

And i know, that being german doesn't mean that your a nazi. Not then not now.
Being a Nazi means embracing a mindset and a way of thinking!
There is not shame to be proud your history. There was/is more to germany than just Hitler!

Most of us here have a fascination about everything Naval. Me, I'm totally into U-Boote form WWI and WWII.

And since we're at it: I don't believe, no matter how much the media stresses this, that games where you play as a bad guy or a german, makes you turn into a Nazi and kill fellow classmates in the school!


Sorry for the rant!


N'abend!:hmm:

I'm with you on this matter. The germans had some good Strategys.

About that bomb thingy...It really makes me lol Every single time. They still do it today! They dropped more bombs on Iraq than USAF and RAF dropped on The Third Reich TOGETHER! (Saw it yesterday on TV)

And thats a Precice attack? Yeah sure.

Thats Correct. This wasn't a Very Smart Strategy.
But what to do if you have no Guns and Ammo? Let the Nazis win? :nope:
Bad sitiation. I dont wanna be the Leader Choosing between the two. :roll:

And they have nice Cake! British Teacake...mhhhhh.:up:
And they have manners.

Agreed. :up:

http://img142.imageshack.us/img142/1203/ekeliah5.gif

Here Too.

But thats how 50% of the American Gamers think. For those are this "Hollywood Games" like CoD 2 Made!

Thats the Main Reason why i play this games. I love that old Uniforms and Weapons, and the "Old" Type of War.

(please forgive any spelling/grammer mistakes)
OK i have to jump in here about the german tools of ww2. Yes they did have some pretty advanced weapons compared to the allies in the early years of the war 39-42

But once america joined in thier advances in certain areas were not so proment.

First, lets compare infantry weapons.

Main field infantry weapon of the US(rifle)
-M1 Grande .30-06 Semi auto 8 round emi-block clip

Main Field infantry weapon of the German Army (rifle)
-8mm K98k bolt action w/ 5 round internal mag.

I own both of these weapons and shot both weekly at my local firing range. The M1 grande is a supior weapon

why?

1.30-06 is a more powerful then the 8mm, higher velocity and better stopping power
2.You can fire 8 rounds and reload with the ingenius block clip 10 times faster then u can with a k98k using bolt action and a stripper clip


Main sub machine gun US- Thompson/Grease Gun

Main Sub Machine Gun Ger- MP40

.45acp owns a 9mm... trust me
Stoping power and higher cailber


Main Pistol US- Colt cailber .45 semi Auto 1911

Main Pistol Ger- Walther p38, Luger 9mm

same reason as above, stoping power and higher cailber
I own both btw (p38/1911)

As for machine guns, i would take a mg42 over a 30cal browning just because the mg42 had proven its self to be the best ww2 machine gun of the war.


Now off to the aircraft

Who had the better bombers= US
WHy?- Germany had no true hvy bomber. Thus it couldnt deliver the payloads as thier american counterparts could.


Who had the better air craft- US
Why?- Earlier in the war 39-43 Germany had the advantages in numbers of aircraft, and the Folk wolf aircraft was thier best fighter of the war.
But in the long run compared to the US, the Mustang was a fair supior aircraft, in speed and manvablity.


Tanks-
German had the best tanks hands down, both in armor and firepower (88mm tiger owned)

However what they lacked were numbers and reliablity, against the US, and russians they couldnt compete. Russians were using the T34 as thier primary tank which was a American design manufactured in mass numbers in Siberia in Russia. It was very quick compared to the germans and had good fire power for its size.

Same goes for the Shermans, however the shermans had horrible armor compared to the german tanks, and they lite up like a match box if they got hit.


Field Guns-
German 88mm Field gun was the best gun in the war.
Why?
1. Range
2.Firepower
3.All purpose gun, AA,AI,AT you name it, it couldnt kill it

So yea hope that clears up some stuff for you guys, i would type more but i think i got my point accross.

Good points, but my favorite is the Thermal Nuclear Warhead:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

For me it's about playing out a scenario using the equipment & not the politics or the regime's ideology. The Uboat side offers the most regarding the progression from TypeII's to Type XXI's. Also how the war from the German prospective goes from easy mode to very difficult to survive.

When I play battlefield 1942 (battlegroup 42 mod) and I play the Germans it's for the defensive or offensive scenario (depending on map) and the equipment. The Germans had some real nice motorized equipment etc.

Germans didnt use the same tactics than US. They built their squad tactics around MG42 (which is still used today in a lot of armed forces- MG3) so Kar98 sufficed, US had a diffrent approach so they needed better rifles. And WW2 mauser rifles are even today still used because of their supreme accuracy
And you forgot the Mp44 world's first assault rifle.

But you could say allies cougt germany in later years of the war in terms of technology but the thing is germany allready had new generation of superior weapons prepared by then (Me262 first jet fighter, V2, Mp44, XXI u-boat, air to air heat seeking missiles, new genaration of tanks...) but because of allied bombing raids these weapons were never produced as much as they were ment too.

On an aside, the reasons the US didn't deploy a bigger tank, was because the railway tunnels to get the thing to the coastline from Detroit woudn't admit anything bigger. They could have widened the tunnels, but it would have taken years to do, and when every tank you had was being badly needed....


Back on topic: I am an American, of German descent; my family has been in the States for at least a hundred years (that I know of). Both my grandfathers fought in WWII (one as a fighter pilot on the Asian theater; the other as a B-24 pilot in Europe).

More to the point: I suppose it's possible I have relatives in Germany, at least distant ones. I am not my ancestors; I am not responsible for anyone's conduct but my own. And sometimes not even then. I have been a soldier, and I know, as a soldier, you do not get the luxury of deciding whether you're going to go to work today or not. The Nuremburg trials were wrong: following orders can be a valid reason. Concentration camps... no. That was a clear humanitarian violation, and should have been refused. Thing is... incredible pressure can be brought to bear to get people to do things they might not otherwise have done, especially with an authoritarian gov't with no checks on its power. I do not deny the Holocaust; it was a very, very horrible episode in human history. But the German soldiers on the lines, in the skies and seas, had very little (if anything) to do with this. And so I have no ethical problem playing the part of one of those soldiers, or sailors. Just like an actor playing the part of Adolf Hitler.

This is a very intersting thread. I like, most others have no problem playing the German side, especially in a sub, or flight sim. For what ever reason, I would prefer to play an Allied soldier in a ground action game but would not have a moral problem playing on the German side. Now that said, I was sitting here thinking how I would feel playing a Japanese sub commander, pilot or infantry...and I do feel a bit differently. I do not think I would be as comfortable playing from the Japanese side, and I am not exactly sure why that is.

I think it may be that I see the Japanese in WWII as brutal even at the individual level. I have questioned myself as to whether this is some undercurrent of racism that I was not aware of....but I don't think so. I harbor no ill will towards the Japanese and would gladly play a Japanese American infantry man (the 100th and 442nd were under appreciated units and would love to see them featured in a WWII game!). I just do not see the general German military man in this light, though I am aware that even in the German Navy there were plenty of individuals and captains even outside the SS that totally bought into Hilters extreme views (Forgot where I was reading this...and forgot which captain but I as reading a speech he had given his men and he was quite outspoken on his feelings towards the Jewish menace) I think the majority did not.

It may also have a lot to do with the fact that my relatives that served in Europe came back alive and those that served in the Pacific died (two great uncles...one died on a Hell Ship torped by a US sub and one on the Bataan death march).

Still not quite sure...


In honest truth the one thing I have the most problems with is playing a female character...I just cannot do it...not sure what that means :)

I didnt forgot about the mp44, but considering it came out mid to late 44, it didnt really make a difference. By that time germany was about done...
Yes the k98k is accurate, but the m1 grande is also very accurate @ 100yds+, and the US forces used the same type of tactics, fire and manuver. Using the 30cal browning light machine gun.

Wow!
That's some great reading I received here.
Thanks a lot for sharing all these thoughts.
I'm going out for dinner with my wife now, but I will get back to some of you tomorrow.

I play SH3 because its a great game and it doesnt bother me playing the german side . Japs though , i dont know .

I've snipped a reasoned comparison of some US & German weapons used in WWII.

The other overwhelming difference is that the US had an enormous industrial base making these weapons which entirely outside the theatre of war - no bombed factories, railways, roads.

The finest weapons are no use if you can't make them & deliver them if sufficient quantity.